Question regarding wiring power to post war switches

Classic Toy Trains Forum
1

I admit to having very little knowledge when it comes to wiring. Yet I have a large task ahead in wiring my post war layout.

When complete, it will have four main lines and a trolley line. In total, there are twenty-one blocks, eighteen post war switches, eight uncoupling/operating track sections, a zillion lighted structures, and a few accessories.

I am using two post war ZW’s for train operation and had planned to used a Model Z for powering the switches, building lights and accessories.

Thus war, I have jimmied up various portions of the wiring project and now am attempting to make these more finished.

I am consolidating everything at a central point and have modified a bookcase with pegboard as a back panel to bring all of the wiring into the case. I am using terminal blocks to bring everything to a common point and running power to these blocks.

I set out to perform what I thought would be an easy task by running power to a group of five switches.

Using the original switch plugs to bypass track power, I connected four switches to one terminal block and then ran one wire from the block to the model Z transformer. Result = no power to the switches.

I tried the A, B, C, and D terminals with the same result.

I ran the same wire to an unused terminal of the ZW (B) and the switches are powered and work great.

Figuring it is unlikely the Model Z is bad, I tried to power the track from the Model Z. It worked fine on all terminals - A, B, C and D. Yet it will not provide power to the switches.

Is there something I don’t know, or are the train Gods just messing with me?

2

Hey, I am using similar hardware as you. I have all postwar stuff too. I am using 022 switches, 8 USC uncoupling tracks, (2) Z’s, (1) ZW, (1) KW. I have 4 main lines. A passenger line, frieght line, gang car line, and a budd car line (elevated). Here is how i can help: I wired all my switches to the fixed voltage of the KW, you might wanna look into getting a KW for just the switches, because the KW has a fixed voltage tap that is great. I mean you can still use the Z to power the switches, but that Z does put out 25 Volts on full throttle, little bit too much for 022 switches. So if you keep that trottle at like 2/3 power you will be fine. I found that when i tried to wire my switches to a Z post, such as the A post, they did not work. They did not work because you do not have track power lines going to that transformer. I am not sure, but i have played around a bit. You see, the KW i have the fixed voltage lines going to 1 of the middle binding posts which is a fixed voltage tap. I send all the fixed voltage lines to a block, then 1 wire straight to the binding post on the KW that is used for fixed voltage. But, in doing all that, it didnt work. I had to add track power lines to the A & U of the KW to make it all work. Its something about having track power and fixed voltage power from the same tranformer. But, the A trottle on my KW was left at no power, no throttle at all. And i used the Z for powering the lines with the switches on them. I am not sure how you would wire it all up for a Z to power your switches. Maybe all fixed voltage to the A post on Z and track power lines to the C & U binding posts. But, have the C knob at no power, no throttle. Might work. I dont think your Z is dead, it maybe old, but they are reliable. I dont know about you, but the track gods have been good to me for this christmas’s layout. Right now, i have my

3

This may sound like a dumb question. Is the common also tied together with the common from the ZW? Also when doing this make sure the transformers are in phase.

4

You mean the common ground from the Z should be tied together with the common ground from the ZW?? I think you might be right that they must have the same common ground. How domake sure transformers are in phase. I use 4 seperate lines and they do not switch into each other. So i guess i would not have to put my transformers in phase. He might wanna put them in phase cause he might have lines switching into each other. Not sure what he layout looks like. thanks.

5

Check out Sunday photo fun from this past Sunday his layout is outstanding! He has a web page or link to all his photos wish I could remember what it was.

As far as phasing I have done this in the past by hooking the commons together then put a small peice of wire on to the hot lead (A) of both transformers, apply about half voltage to both transformers, touch the two leads together, look for a spark. If ther is little or no spark they are in phase. If big spark rotate one transformer plug 90 deg. try again. When you get them phased mark the plugs so when plugged in they are always orintated the same way.

6

one question: Give me an example of why you would want your transformers in phase?? Is it if you have switches connecting lines using 2 seperate throttles?? I am not sure why phasing is nessesary. It makes sense, but would like to know why. And in what situations you would want to phase transformers. Thanks.

7

Long story short lets just say The U terminal is “negative” and the A is “positive” . The U is to the outside rail A to the center. If you have too loops of track each with there own transformer connected by crossovers if they were not phase you would creat a short when a train passes over. Same with switches the Little constant power pin on the side of 0-22 is “positive” the outside rail “negative” again if you were using a seperate transformer to run trains and power the switches and they were not in phase you would creat a short.

8
  • Make sure the transformer powering the turnouts has the “common/ground/negative” binding post attached to the outside rails of the track at some location.

Transformers powering turnouts with fixed voltage still need to have a path to return to ground.

  • Use 12-14 volts for fixed voltage to turnouts.

  • Fixed voltage to turnouts can be supplied by a second transformer, but phase this transformer with the one powering the track/engines.

When using two transformers to power track and turnouts, phasing the transformer will significantly reduce sparks when trains transition between the turnouts and the rails.

  • The commons of transformers can be tied together.
    Something like a Buss bar can be used under the layout. Feed the commons from the tracks and accessories to the Buss bar under the layout, and then run wires from the commons of the transformer to the same Buss bar.
9

So, I have a KW powering all my 022 switches in 1 loop, not connect to any other loop of track. I can use the fixed voltage tap from my KW to power all these switches, but have to have another lockon on that (loop with the switches) track. And have to run 1 wire (common ground) from the lockon (outside rail) to the U post of my KW (A or B side). Is this correct?? Then I can still run my trains using a seperate Z transformer, wired U to common ground or outside rail and A post to center rail?? Hope this is all right.

Also, Is it the same with standard gauge and 222 & 223 switches??

You mean if I have my transformers in phase, I can go into and out of loops powered by different tranformers?? No Fiber pins in the center rails?? Thanks, Hope this makes things clear for thread starter as well as for others. Thanks again.

10

Frank,

It’s great to see you back, and specifically back posting to CTT(I try to stay away from more hostile waters).

I agree that you need to make absolutely sure that your Z is in phase with your ZW, and that you have the commons of both transformers tied together.

Once you’ve done this, barring a faulty transformer, which I would highly doubt, there’s no reason why your set up won’t work.

11

Frank,

Although not a wiring wizard, I believe ben10ben is correct. You need a common (“U”) from the track. Then all should be okay.

Mike

12

Hey, just got done phasing my transformers. It all works good now. But, When the train loco crosses into another loop and you have it on half throttle on the exiting loop and no thottle on the entering loop, The engine just dies right where the two switches meet. Do I have to have both throttle on both transformers on half throttle to continue the crossing into other loop?? thanks. My common ground are good now, it was simple. Only took like 3 small pieces of wire to connect (2) Z’s together and get them phased. No spark here too. Thanks again.

13

if your two loops are isolated with a plastic center rail pin, then yes, both transformers or throttles need to be set appoximately equal.

14

Yes, I do have a center rail fiber pin in between the two switches. What would happen if I were to take out that fiber pin and put in a steel one?? Kaboom?? thanks.

15

leave the fiber pin right where it is. trust me.

16

Okay, got it. Is it the same i take it with O gauge?? Thanks.

17

it is the same deal. three rail is three rail.

18

(partial quotation)

True as far as “reversing loops” are concerned; but with switches (turnouts) the correct positions of the insulating pins that control the non-derailing functions vary from model to model, don’t they? There’s nothing better than a good set of instructions from the manufacturer.

19

Thank you for your replies.

The switches on the main level, which are powered by one zw work very well when the switch power is hooked to that same zw.

When I ran a switch power line to the same terminal for a train on the upper level, powered by a different zw, the switch would not throw and I had a massive derailment.

Have to think through this and troubleshoot backwards.

20

Connect the transformer commons, which are terminals U for the Z and ZW, to the outside rails, which should be connected together everywhere except for control rails for the turnouts and any track-activated accessories.

Isolate the center rails of the blocks. Do not run from one block to another powered by a different transformer or a different output from the same transformer. In either case, you can get arcing. In the second case, you can get burned out wiring or a burned out transformer if the train idles across the gap, since the circuit breaker does not protect against the short circuit that then occurs. Instead, use an (electrical) switch to assign each block to one of your transformer outputs. If using more than one transformer for train power, get the transformers into phase to minimize the fireworks if you accidentally run between differently-powered blocks.

Use wire heavy enough to be safe for the maximum current that the transformers’ circuit breakers can deliver continuously, which is 15 amperes and 14 AWG for the Z and ZW. Stranded or solid makes no electrical difference.

There is no reason for a transformer used only for turnouts and accessories to be in phase with the track transformer(s). In fact, if it is out of phase, there is less voltage drop in the outside rails. But, as you have discovered, its common must be connected to the other commons for it to work the turnouts.

(“Bus” is spelled with only one “s”.)