(If this info has already been discussed someplace, pointers to that other info will be fine)
I’m wanting to track down some information on PRR 2-8-8-2 power. I am aware they had a model from Alco back in the early 1900’s (like 1911 or something). I am interested in later years-- I know they leased several Y-3’s from the N&W…
Here’s my first question:
Is there any known instance where (A) the Pennsylvania Railroad ran Y6B’s (on their own trackage) and (B) under their own livery (i.e. PRR herald) ???
Here’s my second question:
What are the principle spotting differences in the Y3 and the Y6B?
For instance I know the cylinders on the Y3 are small-over-large versus the Y6B which are big-over-big. Apparently the Y6B had a compound arrangement.
Both engines were essentially USRA 2-8-8-2’s (IIRC the Y3’s were USRA originals that were also modernized in the 20’s) with the Y6b being the ultimate example of taking a good design and improving it to the nth degree. The Y4’s and Y5’s were interim steps in the improvement of the original USRA design.
There are pics of Y3 and Y6 engines here: http://www.retroweb.com/nwsteam.html That ought to give you some idea of the differences. However, the Y6 had a somewhat different appearance from the Y6b as the Y6b used Worthington type SA feedwater heater (IIRC) while the Y6 in the pic has a Worthington type BL feedwater heater.
Here’s a pic of a Y6b. The differences between the Y3 and Y6b should be pretty obvious. One thing that’s not apparent is the forward cant of the smokestack; http://www.toytrains1.com/images/trains/2197.jpg
Is there any known instance where (A) the Pennsylvania Railroad ran Y6B’s (on their own trackage) and (B) under their own livery (i.e. PRR herald) ???
PRR had a 2-8-8-2 class HH1s( #373-378) these was ex N&W Y3s…I don’t think PRR had any exN&W Y6Bs.You see and if memory serves the Y6B wasn’t built till 1948.
It should also be noted that the Y6b in its final form and as typically modeled has a tender that is unique to the N&W. Earlier versions has various tenders that are more “typical” of tenders on other railroads.
It should also be noted that the PRR did not like the Y3 and did not like articulated locos in general.
With their very heavily built mainline and mostly easy curves, articulated locos posed no operational advantages for them.
Roads like the N&W, C&O, B&O, and WM had lots of sharp/moderate curves and steep grades where the advantages of articulateds outway any additional maintenance considerations. Compaired to a rigid loco of similar TE, most articulated locos can maintain higher speeds in sharper curves and loose less TE in those curves. Same is true of the vertical curves associated with grades.
I read somewhere that 30 Y6Bs were built from 1948 to 1952. … Also, that the first 2-8-8-2 locomotives were built for the Southern Pacific (class MC-1) in 1909. Built with cab in year (no, I mean cab in rear), the two locomotives of this class were quickly modified into cabforwards (MC-2). Later that year, the SP received 15 more MC-2 cabforwards from Baldwin.
5092 N&W 2-8-8-2 Mallet - Based on a specific N&W class of locos, which in turn were copies of the USRA standard design of the same wheel arrangement. The N&W Y-class of locos date back to the original USRA locos and over time they got a total of 191 of these. The model is of the last class, the Y6b, built from 1948 until '52, nos. 2170-2200. The model scales out to be 116 feet long.
[Model photo, courtesy Wm.K. Walthers.]
According to Steve Orth (Dec. 2005 Railmodel Journal), the N&W, Virginian, and Clinchfield got the original engines. After WWI, clones were acquired by the D&RGW and NP.
AHM also offered this model decorated for the PRR (model no. 5090) and ATSF (model no. 5091). The Pennsy and Santa Fe got original USRA Mallets from the N&W.
Perhaps the biggest difference between a USRA Mallet and the Y6b/this model is the cab. The USRA loco had a pretty standard lo
While I didn’t know that specifically (thanks), the South Pennsylvania Railroad, the pseudo-fictional road I’m modeling with heavy PRR influence, will have more sharp and moderate curves than the PRR proper would. So it might actually be a good selection then…?
Yes, it sure would! That’s the great thing about freelancing and protolancing - it’s your railroad!
Here on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL we love articulated power. Especially the shorter wheelbase variaties, 2-6-6-2’s, 2-6-6-4’s, 2-6-6-6’s, and we do have a couple of Y3 equals. Non articulated power is limited to driver wheel bases of less than 20’. So the biggest are Reading T-1 Northerns and we have no locos with five coupled drivers.
The Y-6b was the ONLY N&W Y-series loco that had a Worthington SA feedwater heater (that rectangular ‘hump’ in front of the stack) Starting with the Y-3 (and retrofitted to the Y-2) the Ys were equipped with Worthington BL feedwater heaters, that oversize hunk of hardware on the fireman’s side just forward of the high-pressure cylinders.
The Y-6bs were equipped from the start with high-capacity tenders, and didn’t last long enough to wear them out. Earlier models which had been built with smaller tenders had them replaced in later years by high-capacity tenders purchased from other railroads - notably RF&P.
The Y-3 wasn’t a copy of the USRA 2-8-8-2. The USRA adopted the N&W design as standard.
The Y-3s that were turned over to the Pennsy were given keystone number plates on their smokebox doors, a feature previously reserved for passenger power.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with one 16-drivered catenary motor)
The PRR received 6 Y3 locomotives and used one for parts to keep the others in service. They were mostly used for pushers on the hump in Columbus and sometimes a transfer run from yard to yard. #373 was cannibalized for parts.
The rest did a good job at what they were assigned to do. The Pco. did not like to have too much heave hoe on the front. The first articulated tested out of Altoona was HH1 #3396 had so much heave it pulled a few couplers out of the train it was pulling. In 1919 they received a few from Alco (HC1s) and Baldwin (CC2) for pusher and hump service. They seemed to like the 0-8-8-0 better than the 2-8-8-0. Why they were not put on the big hill around the curve is a mystery to me. Perhaps there was not a convenient way to turn them. At least the N&W locos did not travel far from where they came from.
If you read Uncle Sam’s Locomotives, you will learn that N&W officials who showed up at the meetings for what would become the USRA brought with them the plans for the N&W Class Y-2A 2-8-8-2.
The USRA committee made minor revisions to those plans that resulted in the USRA 2-8-8-2, and promptly allocated N&W 50 such engines, which became their class Y-3. They were delivered new with USRA tenders (later replaced by larger N&W tenders), and the huge Worthington BL feedwater heaters so common in Y-3 class photos were not added to the left side until rebuilding during the 1930’s. As delivered, they looked like all other USRA 2-8-8-2’s–because that’s what they were.
Class HH-1 was the 6 ex-N&W Class Y-3’s, which didn’t arrive till late in WWII.
The first Pennsy 2-8-8-0 was Class HC-1, road number 3700, and it did have at least 147,000 pounds of tractive effort (simple), which in 1919 was more than many drawbars could withstand. It had a huge Belpaire boiler, and NJ International/Custom Brass imported a well-known brass model of this engine. Some have suggested the PRR 2-8-8-0 was simply ahead of its time–had they been a bit more patient, it or perhaps its offspring could have been worthy mountain-tamers–had it been given a real chance and been built a few years later when drawbars were stronger.
My one landlord here near Harrisburg, PA, Jack Keister, actually operated the HH-1 2-8-8-2’s in heavy transfer service between Harrisburg and Cumberland, Maryland. (He’s been dead more than a decade now).
They were also used near Columbus, Ohio, in heavy transfer service.
The PRR men hated them, at least in part because they were slow, and likely also because they were very well worn engines–but they were nearly all that was available at the time, and PRR was desperate for power–so they took them.
Around 1980 NJ International, which imported brass locomotives at the time, brought out a soft cover book “USRA 2-8-8-2 Series:” as part of their Classic Power series of books. The text is by Thomas Dressler, an N&W authority. He writes that the USRA engine was based on the Y-2a.
There is discussion of the Y-3s that went to the UP, ATSF, etc. The Santa Fe actually considered using the boilers to make a 3751 class 4-8-4.
As for the Pennsy they were during WWII a part owner of the N&W and received 6 Y3s. At first they worked the hump and transfer service at Enola and then went to Columbus for transfer service to N&W’s Joyce Yard. He writes that the Pennsy installed Keystone number plates, PRR classification lights, and Pennsylvania lettering on the tenders. Purchased 1943; scrapped 1948. PRR 373 was ex N&W 2000, ex VGN 900 – the first USRA 2-88-2.
The others were 374 (2008); 375 (2027); 376 (2034); 377 (2036); 378 (2046; and the only Baldwin in an otherwise all Alco bunch).
For a time Bowser offered a brass tender of the sort used on these engines.
You, Sir, are technically correct but you too might check your facts; the original 2-8-8-2 built by Schenectady in 1911 were designated Class HH1s–I seem to recall reading someplace that PRR added the “s” as a suffix to the Class designation to indicate a unit that received post-production superheating but whether or not that is the significance in this case for that suffix or not I cannot be sure. According to Kalmbach’s Guide to North American Steam Locomotives: History and development of steam power since 1900 that original 2-8-8-2 Class HH1/HH1s #3396 had been retired in 1928; PRR reused classification HH1 for the Y3s acquired from Norfolk and Western during Big Brawl Two.
The Y-3s that were turned over to the Pennsy were given keystone number plates on their smokebox doors, a feature previously reserved for passenger power.
Sorry Chuck but,the J1s and M1s had the keystone number plates as well.
