Anyone know what semi-scale means? [?] Click on the pic to see it better.
Bigger than 027, smaller than O?? [%-)]
Scale Size car, less detail. They are based on the Lionel Pre-War Scale and Semi-Scale cars. The caboose is beautiful, looks like the Lionel 2957.
Dep, I think this recent phrase has its origins based on the postwar era of trains. Back in the glory days of Lionel, lots of words like realistic, realism, and action. Outside of a few items, the word “scale” seldom was an issue. I read someplace it is thought a consideration into the size of the 6464 box car was to make it easy for a child to pick up and handle. It’s my own thought that the smaller 027 cars by Lionel were in part to save money, and in part to compete and be somewhat compatible with the smaller sized MARX trains.
The MTH Railking line has been all over the place in size. Some cars, like the flat car and regualar tank car are very close to the sizes of the postwar Lionel verions. Others like the basic Railking box car are a little bigger than the Lionel 6464, but still smaller than full scale. Same goes for some of the RK locos. Usually they have been just shortened in lenghth like the Bataam steamers or the early RK F-3, which is now part of the Rugged Rails line. Some of the newer Railking cars like the PS-2 hopper are pretty darn close to being scale in size.
MTH took the older top line Premiere tooling and has put that into the Railking Scale line up. Mike Wolf said all of his dies were made for long production runs. So as the detail levels of scale stuff increased, it made sense I suppose to place those less detailed but scale items into the Railking line. And if you stop to think about, MTH seems to have more appeal to the full scale enthusiasts than do other companies.
I think this semi-scale term has been a way of waltzing the line between full scale and traditionally sized. When MTH came on the scene, other than a few small niche companies, it was Weaver, Lionel and K-Line: Weaver was full scale, Lionel was mostly less than scale and K-Line was nearly all traditionally or 027 sized, save for a few early entries like their passenger cars and the spine cars. I think even to this current day, traditionally sized operators make up the largest percentag
Well I still don’t know what the heck a semi-scale car from MTH is. Is it the correct size as far as length/width/height? I’m not all that concerned about detail, because a heavily detailed boxcar can still not be scale size. I don’t want a heavily detailed 027 boxcar. I know about the MTH Railking situation. I have a NYC Railking F3 that is known as “Railking Scale”. It’s the same height/width/length as a scale F3. And it actually is pretty detailed too. MTH is moving more and more to Railking Scale in their locos. I have a few other “scale size” Railking and other make (Williams) locos that are scale size. I know Williams varies in the detail they apply to scale size locos. Their E7 locos have some nice detail and they are scale. Williams also lists “semi-scale” items in their catalog. If you go by Williams catalog, semi-scale means 027 gauge stuff. I Just wonder if it’s the same thing with MTH. I think this boxcar predates Railking Scale (I checked, it’s a 1997 release, I think that is pre-Railking Scale). For that matter, I’m not even sure if the term Railking Scale is even applied to anything but locomotives.
Dep
I can only speak for the RailKing heavyweight and streamlined passenger cars I have. They are the “right” width and height, but “short”. My K-Line “Streamliners” are smaller all the way around. While the K-Line cars look more graceful, they tend to look small next to most engines pulling them (they look fine behind a 681 Turbine, but not behind a 275 or most others). Also, the RailKing will take MTH sitting figures quite well, the K-Line is too tight.
The Lionel and Williams heavyweights I have seem to be full width, but not as high as the RailKings. Although the RailKing may look a bit more “stubby”, I prefer them.
This link has the best explanation that I’ve seen to the different sizes in O-scale. There are links to illustrations at the bottom.
Nope…no help there, but some errors. I have some K-Line scale cars that are 0-Scale and the correct dimensions. And some Williams locos and some rolling stock are 0-scale. And the comment “several Railking cars are made close to 1/48, and thus have the same limitations as their full-Scale counterparts” may describe the car above, but doesn’t tell me exactly what is and isn’t “right” on the car (height/width/length). He goes into semi-scale, but it’s done on the loco page, and that’s no help. He goes into 3 different sizes of 0-gauge locos. For me, there’s just two sizes, 0-scale and traditional. And traditional includes 027/Classic/Traditional. If I run my S-2 turbine, I hook up everything but 0-scale cars to it. I don’t see any big difference between 027 and Classic/Traditional. None of it is scale, so you are more concerned with how nice it looks and runs, and not if one boxcar is slightly larger or smaller than the other.
I guess I will just avoid “semi-scale” and stick with what I know is actually scale. As they say, “close only counts in horse shoes”. [;)]
Lionel coined the term “semi scale” in the 30’s to mean scale trains with tinplate trucks and less detail when they did the 763 semi scale hudson. 763E semi scale hudsons were half the price of full scale 700E hudsons. Hence the word “semi” meaning half price.
Manufacturers of late have mis-construed the term to mean scaled down models with more detail for use with O27 or O31 track. But then, depending on the size of the prototype, they may or may not be scale.
Thanks John. That’s the best explaination I’ve heard. [:)]
Just a quick update on the semi-scale thing. I was poking around in my train storage room and discovered I actually had the NYC semi-scale boxcar that is pictured above. So I dragged it out and did a comparison to a scale MTH boxcar. The length is the same. But the width and height are different. The semi-scale is not as tall or as wide. There is also conseiderably less detail. The brake wheel is there. But the ladders are all cast into the body. And the undercarriage is just a flat piece of metal. Closest thing I can compare it to is a traditional-style boxcar that is enlarged, but not to O-scale dimensions. If you put it in a consist with other scale boxcars, it won’t stand out at first glance. Especially if the train is going pretty fast. But at slow-to-moderate speeds, it will most likely stand out. It’s a shame that they didn’t just make it a scale car. The paint on it is quite good. And It’s a P and E, which is less common than the standard NYC cars. Anyway, I am gonna put mine up for sale. It just wouldn’t look good in a traditional-size train, and I like to keep my scale stuff all scale. [:)]
I did grab a scale NYC boxcar on Ebay last night. And I recently won a scale P&LE K-line boxcar off Ebay. So I am in pretty good shape [:D]
Dep, don’t know if it will totally help, but if you happen to have the now somewhat famous Neil Young issue of Classic Toy Trains from March 1993, there was an article buried in back called “The Scale’s The Thing.” I think it’s high time for Bob Keller and the gang to do some updating and reprint that article. It would be very helpful to many like you in your quest to determine what is and isn’t scale.
According to the article, by this “ruler”
SMALL is less than 85% of scale
MEDUIM is 85-93% of scale
LARGE is 93 to just under 100% scale
TRUE 0 is 100% scale
Then there were listings of products and where they fell by that “ruler.” Some examples:
6464 Box cars fell under MEDIUM as did Lionel Hi Cubes, KMT/Kris (now Bachmann/Williams) box cars fell under LARGE, Weaver and Lionel Standard 0 box cars fell under TRUE 0. Yet it’s pretty obvious that a Williams box car, while being scale in size, certainly has a simplified detail level when compared to a Weaver, Atlas or other current scale box car.
The article is really very good and quite informative and gives a pretty good ballpark idea where items fall as far as size goes. Detail level is another thing. Obviously cars and locos can be full scale and yet not have scale detail. Like in the case of your pictured NYC Lionel Standard O box car, that top black door guide certainly wouldn’t please some purists, even if the car is scale in its proportions.
Man, the hobby has come a LONG way from the little ol’ MARX origin K-Line 5000 series of cars I’m so fond of. [8] And probably some would say, that’s a good thing too!!! [:D]
Be advised, real railroad 40 ft boxcars aren’t all the same in height and width. PS-1 boxcars for example are considerably taller and slightly wider than AAR boxcars. They both look similar in construction.
Brian: I’m not real picky about the small details. But the semi-scale Railking is different enough sizewise to be noticeable.
John: I understand that there are different dimensions between AAR and PS-1. Weaver and others actually differentiate between the two. But “semi-scale” just doesn’t fit in any mold. I think the only loco it would be appropriate being pulled by would be the Railking MTH S2 turbine. That loco falls sizewise between the Lionel 682 and the Lionel scale-size S2.
Dep, I didn’t think you were being too picky… you just want to know.
Hey, I’m hardly a purist being an 027 guy. But on the other hand I won’t run Conrail cars behind steam locos. And I’ll ask questions on the Trains forum about the prototypical use of a particular car, just because I’m curious more than anything else. I’ve always been curious about the many different scheme “LCL” cars and found they usually didn’t run interchange. Just neat to know.
LOL…we have much in common. I try and keep my layout as “era correct” as possible. Which would be 1920s up to the Penn Central merger. I also won’t have Conrail or Railbox or any of the other modern era stuff. I do make exceptions for occasional trains that will have a bunch of “I Love NY” boxcars, NY Yankees cars, and other NY cars. It keeps my wife and inlaws happy [:D]
And of course, there’s the Bonomo’s Turkish Taffy train. When I saw those three MTH boxcars for sale on Ebay I grabbed them immediately. Pretty neat to have boxcars with my last name on them, even though they aren’t relatives of mine [(-D]