Understand this guys, I think direct radio is a better approach to command control, and for what I know about it, Railpro is a good system. My questions are to understand if it would ever fit my layout goals which right now is advanced DC cab control with Aristo Radio throttles.
I will admit, I don’t really like the picture screen approach. I don’t use a smart phone, I reluctantly use a tablet for work, I am older and have eyesight issues with small stuff like that up close. My general vision is very good, but up close and small like a smart phone is a problem.
I have no interst in onboard sound in HO, sound quality too poor. I think its funny how guys worry about the “correctness” of sounds that are so poorly reproduced in the first place. If I was going to have onboard sound, fairly “generic” sound files would be just fine.
When it comes to new technology, I think the only thing a person can really do is operate it to see if it is right for them. Listening to comments often gets a bit misleading.
Comments almost always tout the convenience of the new tech compared to the old.
And they usually start off with the phrase…“All you have to do is…” I’ve noticed with many new things, the part after the “is” isn’t really that convenient.
I’m also wary of when comments say…“You can…” …touting new tech’s features.
Well, with my old DC system, “all I have to do is” flip a few toggles and “I can” run multiple trains.
New tech usually just replaces the inconveniences of an older system with the inconveniences of a newer system. Its just a matter of which inconvenience a person prefers.
I use my phone for talking, texting, or emailing. Its a tool dedicated for communicating with people. I like dedicated tools, and find that nondedicated, more universal tools are ultimately less convenient.
Smart phones are like pliers. Sure, pliers will loosen a hex nut, but if I really want to do the job correctly, “all I have to do” is get off my butt and go fetch the proper tool to do the job instead of just using what’s conveniently nearby.
The OP asked for comments by people who have used both systems. I have not, so I can’t compare. The only thing I can do is compare comments about each of the technologies, and they both sound about the same to me. Both have their conveniences and inconveniences it seems.
Just to clarify, you can get RailPro decoders with or without sound.
One feature I find interesting, but don’t use, is RailPros power supply. It can be controlled from the hand controller. If you need to emergency stop your trains, you can send a stop signal to all the trains, or shut off the power supply.
Digitrax has that, and I’m pretty sure NCE does as well.
It was covered, but WORST CASE with DCC is you press exactly 6 buttons to select ANY loco you own. Sometimes less, if the loco has less than 4 digits in the address, but NEVER more, for ANY brand DCC system. I CAN have up to 32 ‘recalls’ saved up, the last 32 locos I’ve used, but to access that requires 2 button pushes plus up to 32 clicks of the knob - I count each clicking turn of the knob the same as pressing a button. I’m not sure why I would want to push a button, turn the knob 10-20 times, and then press another button when I could just press 6 buttons and be done. Hence I do not use the recall stack feature.
Now, I don;t have as big a power stable as Sheldon (yet), but say I had 60 locos. At 6 per page, that’s 10 pages on the RailPro throttle, so depending on the loco I may have to hit the page up or page down as many as 10 times to get to my loco. Plus tap on the picture, so 12 taps or button presses to select a loco, worst case. Great when it’s on page 1, you’d hit the loco select, page 1 comes up, you tap on the loco on page 1, so just 2 taps, not so great when it’s on page 10. With DCC, it’s never more than 6 button pushes no matter if you have 20 locos or 200 locos. And when you have multipels of the same type, you’re still using the same method to identify them - looking at the loco (or a picure thereof) to see the cab number, the only difference is instead of then using that number for th selection, you are using the picture with that number on it for the selection. But you aren’t ‘memorizing’ an address which DCC has and RailPro does not.
Now if they could make it so the list was a list, without pictures, brief description and number, and I could arrange the list putting the lead unit of each consist where I wanted them, maybe 12 or 15 on a page, that could work…
I have a question that don’t seemed to be addressed by the Ring Engineering web site or any other source I have come across.
While it is clear that the engine modules will operate off of DCC power, instead of the $100 Ring Engineering PWR-56 power supply, it is not at all clear if the initial setup requires the PWR-56. The same question applies to using a non Ring Engineering regulated DC supply for track power.
So, can modelers who already have good DCC or regulated DC supplies simply buy the controller and loco modules, or must they spring for the PWR-56 as well, as I suspect?
I don’t see what in Ring’s documentation would lead you to believe you MUST use their power supply. Just as you don;t need to use Digitrax’s power supply with their DCC system or NCE’s power supply with their DCC system, you can use anything that puts out the approriate voltage with sufficient current to operate as many trains as you expect to run. If you are a newcomer to the hobby, I suspect you would be just buying the Ring supply to kep things simple.
Keep in mind, a large layout will certainly require a bus and feeder system to keep voltage from dropping at distant parts of the layout - just like DCC (and a large DC layout of the traditional cab control type). Circuit breakers would be a good idea, both to keep one derailment from shutting down the entire layout and to keep 5+ amps out of a single loco.
Then there’s signallng - you will still need to break the layout into detection blocks if you want to have detection and signalling, just like DCC. Long turnout and short locos need frog power, same as any other system. Or keep alives - is there any provision on the Ring receivers for a keep alive device?
Although it sounds like it could be a simple problem to solve, this is a problem created where there was none before.
A the list would have to be in a written language. Languages are specific to each country the product is marketed, which makes it more expensive than using universal pictures to communicate.
Kinda regressive in terms of communication, considering how cavemen evolved from using pictures into modern man with complex literacy. Other than the pure profit driven motive of marketing a product to be global…i.e. border-agnostic, I never understood why so many in the tech arena think using pictures is a convenient or efficient way of communicating nearly every choice. Humans evolved away from that and into their language silos many thousands of years ago.
The problem with their documentation is too much rah, rah, rah, and not enough technical information.
They do state that upon first use in a locomotive, the decoder’s current draw is measured and used to calibrate its settings. They don’t state whether the draw is measured within the decoder or by the power supply, both of which communicate with the hand held controller. If it is within the decoder, then it appears you would not need their power supply at all. I was looking for confirmation of that.
I also find it puzzling that they mention using DCC to power the loco in several places, yet never mention anything about existing DC supplies, nor do they list the specific advantage of their regulated DC suppy over any off the shelf regulated DC supply.
I understand their supply reports overload situations back to the controller, but is there anything else? The audible click of a circuit breaker would work for me.
FWIW, I have a couple of variable 30 amp linear supplies capable of 14 vdc. If I were to decide on RailPro versus expanding my meager Digitrax/DCC investment, I would prefer to use one of them and save one or two hundred bucks.
The RailPro controller already has textual “buttons.” They are in English.
RailPro is marketed only in the US. Regulatory approvals for a radio communicating device are far more onerous and costly than minimal user interface software development for a handful of common languages.
Again, I have not used RailPro and was observing comments and combining it with my own experience regarding the software and apps for tablets, smart phones, etc,
Sometimes a picture is better, because its worth a thousand words. But since proper wording often wont fit on the cramped screen, the problem created requires settling for pictures.
Except in this case we are merely replacing 1-4 numbers with a picture. As I mentioned, in Europe this makes sense - locos do not have nice 1-4 digit numbers to use as a simple ID. Pictures are almost a must, unless you want to carry around a cheat sheet saying what DCC address corresponds to what loco. It’s why they weren’t big on the long address feature, either. But the top European DCC systems have picture databases to select locos - look at the ESU ECoS for example. They’ve been doing it for a while now. It hasn’t gone very far in the US yet because it’s not really necessary. We have those nice numbers conveninetly printed right on the loco to use.
So what we have is a proprietary throttle (like DCC) that is somewhat expensive because it has all this whiz-bang color touch screen stuff in it, with as of yet no lower cost alternative (all the major DCC manufacturers have their full featured throttles plus one or more simple enginner throttles which are less expensive, have fewer buttons, and are designed to simply run a train. And most anyone with DCC can to touch screen if they so choose, via JMRI and Engine Driver/WiThrottle. Which works nicely on the cheap $10 Android phones you can get - how’s that for a cheap throttle? DCC has it all - traditional knob throttles, touch screens with pictures, and whatever else someone might come up with, combined with an interoperability factor because of an NMRA standard communications protocol. What’s funny is that the one DCC system that makes you pay a (slight) royalty to commercially sell compatible items has the largest third party market of all the DCC makers, and one of if not the largest DIY base with complete systems, individual modules, and schematics and code for complete DIY components.
No, you do not need the RailPro power supply for anything. No you don’t need a programing track.
All I bought was the hand controller and some decoders. Installed the decoders in my engines ( they install using the same 9 pin connector as DCC ) put the engines on the main track, set them up and ran them. It’s imposible to accidentally program one address to all your engines.
The engine information is stored in the decorder. I moved a decoder to a different engine and the original information was still there. The new engine information over wrote the old information.
No where have I seen documation that Digitrax or NCE can control the power supply from the hand controller. Pressing the e-stop on either of these systems just stops the locomotive. I’ll check my NCE Power Pro instructions again.
There’s two ways to do it with Digitrax. The E=Stop button can be either local (only stops your train) or glbal (stops all trains). Plus there is also the Power button which controls track power. E-Stop is not the same as turning off the power - E-Stop sends a broadcast stop packet to address 00 which all conforming decoders must respond to. The track power stays on, just every mobile decoder goes to speed 0. Turning the track power off will of course stop everything - all power is removed from the rails. I’m pretty sure NCE has an E-Stop that works similarly.
The very first page of the quick start instructions for Digitrax (ok, second page, first page is a picture of how everything hooks together) talks about turning the power supply on and off via the throttle - the default setting is that the command station boots up with the track power off and you need to turn it on before a loco can run. That can be changed, but frankly I think it’s kind of silly to have the track power come on the instant you plug the thing in or flip the switch on your power strip or whatever, unless you totally clear the tracks after you are done. If the system powers up witht he power on and someone left a throttle set to some speed other than stop and that loco is still on the track - it’s going to start moving. Until it hits something, derails, or runs off an unfinished part of the layout and crashes to the floor. By requiring a simple Power/On sequence you know nothing will move until you are ready for it.
I have eight ATLANTIC CENTRAL GP7’s, four FA/FB sets, nine USRA Heavy Mountains, eight 2-8-0’s, etc - they all look the same in a picture.
A simple description like “GP7 3546” means way more than a picture, a picture my eyes cannot see well on that small screen without my reading glasses, glasses I do not need to see the train on the layout.
But a simple description like that, in a large enough print to be the touch screen “button” would be much better for me, and a lot of folks like me I suspect, even if it was still only six to a page…
It would easily define the otherwise identical locos.
I am into operations, so that is why they are so many multiples of the same type of locos.
According to what I could dig up, users can create custom loco images with a Windows application from RailPro. It’s $20, if I recall correctly. With that app it should be possible to create an image along those lines, just large block letters and numbers. It’s what I will do if I end up going with RailPro.
This thread has been very helpful. Along with my own research, I have learned enough to convince me it is a viable system for my needs. I will keep it under consideration.