In most cases, I’m sure this is true. In western S.D., though, it might not be. My Grandfather sold a portion of his land for I-90. He figured he netted more on that land transaction then he ever would make off hay or grazing. (It’s generally pretty dry out there.)
Murphy;
A factor for the location of the Interstates was, in a lot of situations both a financial, and political decision. Political in the face of what kind of political clout, the individual land owner weilded with the local Highway Department as the routing was laid out. Financially, the cost of land available vs the expense to purchase the land. An example; In Arkansas, I-30 east Between Gurdon and Prescott, was plotted to be approx a mile north of its current location, over reasonably solid ground, and was actulally built over soft and swampy ground, which was owned by a politically savy group of land owners, and has pretty much constantly, the highway through the area has been in a state of being rebuilt, and under construction ever since it was opened. Similarily, I-40 East of the Forest City area for about 10/15 miles has been reworked over and over to get a surface that will hold up to the traffic.
Murphy
I have been wondering why I have not seen a train along I-90 out to Kadoka on my trips out to the Black Hills. I found a 2004 atlas that shows that line out of service. What are the plans for that line? I like US14 from Midland to Wall. Track speed on the DM&E looks like 10MPH. I have time to get a nice series of pics.
Bob brings up a good point. Land and more importantly labor was cheap. Railroads, particularly in the West, were granted large parcels of land by the government, to encourage settlement.
Also, Environmental Impact Studies were unheard of and the NIMBYs hadn’t been born yet. Case in point. After all the studies, lawsuits, and NIMBYness, it took nearly 40 years for I-476 (more commonly called the Blue Route) to be built between the I-76 (the Schuykill Expressway) and I-95, a distance of 16 miles. By contrast, it took 4 years to build the Transcontinental Railroad between Sacramento and Omaha.
Nick
Wasn’t I-90 aligned to connect all those Wall Drug signs?[;)]
[(-D][(-D][(-D]
It’s my understanding, that rail traffic on the Dakota Southern only goes 1 mile west of Mitchell, to service a grain elevator(?). It’s not clear who actually hauls the cars that 1 mile. My guess would be BNSF.
I’m not certain that line will ever come back to life. Grain is the only traffic, and it doen’t appear they generated enough revenue to do any maintenance. Drought conditions the last few years haven’t helped either. Where the line ducks under I-90 near Okaton, it looks like it’s ready to be cut and bailed
They probably reached into that industry with 60-90 cars so that they dont need to have the engine go onto that last mile =)
Yes, from memory the ruling gradients on TGV lines are about 3.5% - the original Paris-Lyon TGV line runs through the central mountain area of France, and they took a direct but hilly route to minimise construction costs. And yes, it does look like (and at 186mph, feel like!) a gentle roller-coaster in places [:)]
Tony
Interurbans are a interesting example that demonstrates that for every rule there is an exception. Many were originally built literally on the side of the rudimentary roads that existed at the time of their construction and then as they entered more urban enviroments with fewer options to site the right of way, they built their tracks in the roadway, which later became one of the major factors in their downfall. Anyone familar with the fascinating story of The Illinois Terminal is aware that not all rights of way were created equal, especially one you tried to get a SD39 over the lay of the lightly engineered road that electric freight once trod. Doubled freghts, spread rails and derailments were a common occurance. Diesel operation in the streets was a real challenge and strongly held opposition to diesel operation versus electric freight, forced the IT onto trackage rights. If you ever want a good read on a unique road, “The Illinois Terminal Railroad: The Road of Personalized Services” by Dale Jenkins is highly recomended.
…In this country it is my thought when RR’s were built and are built compared to the Interstate highway construction…they {in general}, were held to more high standsards concerning grades and alignments.
Interstates in general will use more steeper grades to keep their routes less circuitious than railroad engineering. I don’t know just what the max steepness gradient is used on interstates but wouldn’t be surprised it surpasses 6% in some locations…Just traveled a stretch of I-70 east - west Indiana to Pennsylvania over past weekend and an example of steepness is the route east out of the Wheeling, WV. area and up the lengthy grade. It is 5%. When we talk of such grades on class 1 RR’s…that is at the extreme.
Of course some determinations of locations of Interstates are political, etc…but comparing just the engineering aspect of it all the RR’s did a much better job of attaining that good min. grade across the landscape.
Just my [2c]
…One more aspect of the RR engineering vers. Interstate building…
Believe the hardware such as bridges are constructed to last much, much longer than the standard fare used on Interstates.
If you wish to travel over 80 MPH on the surface, you will need a new right of way.
The Intersate highways were not designed for more. Given individual control of vehicles by individuals of varying skills, or lack thereof, the carnage only gets worse as highway speed increases.
Railroads on 19th century rights of way and carrying commodities that are not cost sensitive to move at high speed will not do the trick.
This nation will be coming to grips with high speed surface transportation if it wishes to remain competitive. Who pays and how it will be done remains to be seen.
When it reaches a critical point, NIMBYs will be shown the door.
…I believe highway engineers / surveyors must not have the mission of keeping grades as low as possible. I refer back even before Interstates…A national highway {rt. 30}, was updated in my home area in 1948. Some sections of that road have 10.5% grades…! The update was a stretch of about 5 miles and basically the route received a major face lift…with some sections totally off the original ROW so money was spent to redo the complete length…
I’m not an engineer but it is plain to see the route could have be relocated just a half mile sidways…south…and completed with somewhat less grade. This seems to be typical of how highway engineering has been done in many locations over the years.
On the other hand…railroad ROW’s have to be min. grade and tangent as much as possible to allow safe travel of the traffic that moves over them.
It almost seems it comes down to spending money or rather not spending the money to do the best job when talking highway construction that could have been done.
Left out one very important facet:
Railroads built and engineered their R/W’s to the best available standard and completed them with the funds made available to themby the venture capitalists in Europe. Improvements, change in grade and line changes, were made by the railroads as carloadings and traffic determined the need and justified a decent rate of return. In the west, evidence of that can be found on all the western transcons. Railroads rarely, if ever, got bank loans for upgrades. You don’t see many adverse grades and alignments on todays railroads, those lines that could not pay their way went away. They’re mostly gone!, unless they are low speed shortline fodder. (Survival of the fittest.)
…All I’m saying regarding good engineered routes with acceptable grades and tangents, etc…Railroads: Yes, did so. Highways: Followed up and down lay of the land basically…Conclusion: Railroad engineering did the better job.
Railroads HAD to lay out better routes because their ability to climb, accelerate and brake for curvature, was much more severly limited than highways laid out for auto traffic. Think steel on steel vs. rubber on asphalt and HP/ton.
The Reading from Reading to Phila is a good example. Built to haul coal to Phila, It is downgrade or level all the way. Any upgrade in the “loaded” direction would have severly limited train size and profitability - particularly in consideration of very early steam locomotive performance.
“Spy run” would be an excellent example of an indian path that became a road under the euros, to be sure, but falls down in the “parallel railroad” dept.
Whereas the Bluffton Plank road does have a RR line paralleling it, albeit at moderate distance
Here is something I found interesting, look at this map of old indian trails in ohio and compare it to what we know now about our highway system. Isn’t hard to see an equivalent to US 33 as well as 127, and many others.
The resembelance to the eventual paths pursued by rail lines is hard to ignore, also.
Probably fair to say that the “roadways” preceeded the RR’s in those instances
…Very little “engineering” was applied to early east - west routes across our lands…I cite this example: In my home area the east -west routes had to cross the mountain ranges of Pennsylvania mostly perpendicular to their lengths north - south across the western part of the state.
Rt. 30 { a transcon}, passes through my home area and it was preceeded by a trail first blazed by Gen. Forbes which become Forbes Road. One can still see where wagon tracks have worn ruts in the rocks. Rt. 30 was constructed approx. on this same ROW and basically it went up and down mountain ranges by climbing and decending right up and over and down…Not “engineered” to take the most gentle grade that might have been possible. Grades on rt. 30 in that area still reach 10 or 11% in steepness…!
Can remember one of the last relocation projects {in some parts}, of rt. 30 that was accomplished in 1948 that contained grades as steep as mentioned above. I used to be employed by a major Automotive Corp. and we ran vehicle {trucks}, tests in that part of the country because of the terrain. This is steep for safe operation of heavy trucks intermingled with passenger cars on 2 lane highways…Hence my statement of highway engineering not paying as much attention to making a more gentle passage route as did railroad engineering.
One thing to look at …Rail mileage between significant cities and road milage.
Invariably the road (Interstate) mileage is less, indicating that the roads (Interstates) take a much more direct route between points. Rail surveyors when laying out their alignments in the 19th Centrury looked to follow whatever Water Level grade they could find…River bed, Stream bed, Creek bed…the rail builders aim was to get between A & B moving as little earth as possible while still maintaining an acceptable grade of 2% or less if possible. The Interstates were designed to get between A & B with the most direct alignment possible consistant with enviornmental and political constraints.