I’ve acquired some old-stock Athearn Genesis locomotives, and some aren’t running smoothly. I’ve found goopy lube in the trucks, and I think I read somewhere the grease was better for its longevity than its lubrication properties (is that wrong?).
What is the common wisdom on opening up the trucks, cleaning out the old lube, and re-lubing with plastic-compatible oil? I know that was considered a good idea in the blue box days, but what about with Genesis locos?
THanks
Aaron
Not sure about common wisdom but these drivetrains need very little lubricant. The plastic driven gears and the plastic universal joints really don’t wear. The metal worm gears basically cannot wear.
So, less gunk ls better. Very minimal lubricant is actually required.
When I get a noisy twin flywheel drive I get in there and remove whatever visible gunk is present. I use Labelle oil to replace any grease. It sticks nicely to the plastic. Bonus, once the grease is gone from the worm gear you can relube the gear train in future just from the bottom without disassembly. The metal worm needs no lubricant, only the plastic gears need oil. Greasing the metal worm gear is just irrational in my view. The little square “journal” boxes or shaft bearings should get oil on the driveshaft where it sits in the hole in the bearing.
I tend to put a very small amount of Labelle grease into the cup part of the universal joints but I’m not really sure that matters. You can clean and relube these by just taking off the shell so using grease rather than oil makes sense to me.
Only once so far have I needed to add a bit of Labelle to the motor bearings to stop squeal. Very little oil should go there as you don’t want it migrating onto the electrics. Electric motors run regularly should not get dry as the bearings they use are self lubricating.
I agree with Mike, less is more, and I would use Labelle grease only for gears, Labelle oil for the axle. You can check for dried lubricant built-up, but I have never seen that on new old items. Are you sure lubrication is the only issue… If the locos don’t run normally after a few spins, I would check for other problems. Are the wheels shiny? Are the wheels sitting flatly on the track?.. Do you know the history of these locos?
Simon
I remove the worm cover and worm gear and use a tooth brush and 90% alcohol to clean the worm gear.
I use a very thin bladed screw driver to lift out any blobs I can, then a tooth brush or small paintbrush and the alcohol or CRC to clean the gears from the top.
I will sometimes remove the bottom truck cover and attack the bottom side of the gears the same way.
I don’t add any more lube since I can’t ever remove all of the factory lube by this method, and the alcohol and CRC tends to thin the paste to where it flows well.
For a complete cleaning, I remove the truck and take it apart, but the Athearn Genesis locos are generally new enough to where the paste isn’t completeley dried out, the above technique seems to work.
I have 5 Genesis diesel locomotives (3 x F7, 2 x FP7, probably released in 2009), and all of them had plastic worms (red or white) - some of them were cracked. I replaced all of them with new brass worms that are now available from Athearn as spare part (ATHG40063). So if worms are plastic, they need grease too.
If you found hardened grease/lube in gearbox, this indicates that this is very old grease and the best thing would be to completely disassemble gearbox and clean everything - because there can be more hardened lube inside.
Then use Labelle (or similar) grease for gear teeth and oil for any shaft (either worm shaft/bearing or gear shafts inside gearbox). No matter how much I try to apply it sparingly, I think I always add it too much. So just one or two drops and small part of grease is enough.
When you clean worm, you can look if there is any sign of cracks - if there is a crack, this causes noise. In that case, worm needs to be replaced.
Gearbox housing itself can cause noise, because I found some burrs inside that needed to be removed (scalpel or similar tool) - they were occasionally interfering with wheelset gears causing noise.
Furthermore, I found that little square “journal” boxes or shaft bearings that Mike mentioned also can cause noise due to the fact that their bore is too wide for worm shaft. The good thing here is that original Genesis (in fact Roco) motor itself is usually louder than this noise. I was aware of it much more because I replaced Roco motor with coreless one, that is practically noiseless. Also, in some of mentioned locomotives (FP7’s in first place) these square shaft bearings had play inside gearbox (with worm cap/lid in place). This is also cause for noise, because the whole wormshaft/bearing assembly vibrates while motor shaft is spinning at high speed. This can be rect
Yes, it’s true. The issue is two-fold: contamination with foreign materials over time, but also the loss of volatiles that keep the grease fluid-like. It is often just the loss of volatiles in the grease that makes it go waxy and less helpful as a lube, but even water molecules will eventually work their way into the working, churning, grease and turn it into a saponified mess.
Aaron, you should do this, even once per lifetime of the model (or your own), both for the experience and to extend the useful life of your prized locomotives. I know, I know…it’s a daunting prospect, at least it was for me just swapping out a traction tire on a tiny Life Like Proto 2000 SW8 switcher for an all-metal tire axle to help the diesel to get across my #8 DCC-friendly turnouts. But, I did it, and it accomplished what I set out to do…restore the utility of my locomotive. Clearing the gummed-up trucks on your locomotive, if done with patience and determination, will have it back running smoothly in no time at all. Mind you, that’s assuming what you think is the problem really is the problem.
I did not notice Athearn Genesis motors use plastic worm drives.
I’d use just Labelle oil or equivalent on any plastic geartrains.
The trouble with grease is it tends to dry out. Also, if you oil the geartrain and grease the worm then the oil will soften the grease on the worm gear anyway.
THANK YOU ALL – Man, do I love this forum. Most of these locos were shelf queens and some had some mechanical issues (I think those you are mentioning here). At least one is a slow runner. It sounds like I cannot do any harm in disassembling, cleaning, and replacing the lube, clearing out burrs and checking for cracking in any plastic worm gears I might have.
Fortunately I have one F-unit that’s a “parts” loco (it’s already donated its sound board to my ex-NH CR GP9, so now I have a proper Hancock air whistle!). I think I’ll start with truck removal and refurbishment on that loco and see how it goes, then maybe unit-exchange them with one of the other F units and so on and so on.
THANK YOU again!
Aaron
Very helpful thread. [:D]
A portion of the info is applicable to LL P2K units. I haven’t touched my fleet in a while. I’m “cautiously imagining” what I’m going to encounter as I start taking trucks and mechanisms apart for maintenance / lubing in preparation for adding DCC-sound.
P2K units come apart fairly easily. The axle retaining clips require careful manipulation and they pop right off. If you feel you are applying too much force or bending them too far then you are definitely doing it wrong. Don’t break the locking tabs. The clips either pop off easily or you’re doing it wrong. if you pry the clips outwards by quite a tiny amount that’s enough. There’s a trick to it easy to show but hard to describe. I use toothpicks or tiny flat blade screwdrivers to hold one locking tab in the released position after a gentle pry outwards while I then pry out the opposite side. Once one end is uncoiled it’s easier to reach and pry out the third clip. The fourth clip tends to release on its own so be prepared for it to spring up and away…
If you plan on dropping the trucks out anyway I highly recommend you just drop out the trucks and only then remove the axle retainer clips. Far, far easier to do it that way. Probably you don’t even need to remivevthe axle retaining clips at all,
The same plastic is used for the worm gear covers, that also double as truck retaining clips. This is a very clever design. Be very careful prying up the quite similar clips that fasten those truck retaining clips. Those worm covers retain the trucks only by those extensions that sit on top of the metal frame. Once the clips pop off the trucks drop out (disengage the universal joints on the motor drive axles as the trucks drop out, of course).
Once the trucks are out you can easily lubricate the gear train WITHOUT taking off the axle retaining clips if you wish, which I also highly recommend. Unless you need to replace split gears and you’re taking out the trucks anyway you can lube everything without even taking the trucks apart. The problem area is petrified (or even crystallized!!! ) grease on the worm gear. I’ve seen the Putty like peanut buttery stuff and also a weird transparent hard green stuff on P2K worms. One reason I’m a
Hey guys,
I had to had to temporarily back away from the hobby (working on models) for a while due to the job. Getting back into it again.
A request: I have a variety of lubricants but I would appreciate it if anyone would list which LaBelle oils is used for lubricating what. I’ll be taking apart my LL P2K Geeps and E-units soon for maintenance inspections, tweaks and DCC upgrades.
Much appreciated [:D]
The main three lubricants.
Rich
Rich,
Thanks! The narrator on the website’s video explains the differences between the lubricants, whiich is very helpful.
Glad to help.
Rich
Hello All,
The “Old Heads” in this great hobby used to break-in their locomotives by thoroughly cleaning the gears and adding a few drops of Pearl Drops tooth polish; which contains Hydrated Silica- -liquid sand- -and run for at least an hour in each direction.
The theory was, this would “condition” the rough-cut gears of the time and allow for smoother running.
After the break-in time, the gears were cleaned and re-lubed with a light grease or oil.
With the advent of modern plastics and better tooling, the break-in step with Peal Drops is not necessary.
However, as has been posted, a thorough cleaning of modern gears from solidified grease is beneficial.
After thoroughly cleaning the gears, run the locomotive(s) without lubrication- -yeah sounds crazy!
If there is noise from the gears then a light application of plastic compatible grease or oil is advised.
To “silence” noisy gears I use White Lithium Grease. I apply a small amount to the gears with a toothpick and run the unit(s) for a half an hour in both directions.
Getting slightly [#offtopic] …
I recently re-motored and standardized the decoders in four Bachmann GP40s. All the motors are “identical” with no flywheels.
I also cleaned and inspected all the drive components from the drive shafts to the wheel wipers. </
My $0.02 on this is that if you are using those 3 Labelle lubricants they have to be in isolation otherwise in the gear tower they will become one grade by self mixing to some extent.
For grease or other lubricant which has started to harden then a very, very little addition of oil will rejuvinate it. Remember all that has happened is that the lighter viscosity elements have evaporated and this reverses the process.
Genesis trucks that I have have a port underneath the chassis. It’s small and not easy to get to but that does allow a drop or 2 of 102 in with the plastic tube.
Funny to hear the old Pearl Drops trick mentioned after all these years. I remember trying it on a couple of Athearn BB locos 25 or more years ago and I didn’t find it too effective. Just sayin’
One of my units had hardened “crud” in the trucks. A good cleaning and some lubing made it a smooth runner again.
Re: Pearl Drops trick. It did work with BB units. Catch was that you had to be patient and let the unit run non-stop in one direction for one or more hours. Then, stop it, pack more tooth polish to the gears and run it in the opposite direction.
Fortunately, things are easier today.
I found out using marvel air tool oil is the best for the gears,I put some in all of my athearn diesels.I took, the gears out of the trucks and put tin drops of the marvel oil. Onto the gear prongs then I put the gears back onto the gear prongs.After that I then put tiny drops of the oil between the gears,and put the trucks back together. Then put one drop of oil at the ends of. The flywheels and my engines no longer make a. Loud noise and they run really smonth.
I am thankful for your mentioning this specialty oil, which I had never heard of before. I wasn’t even aware that Turtle Wax has owned the Marvel oil company for over two decades!