I saw a show that talked about new strip mining operations and what strict regulations they are held to. In most modern cases, the land is unusable for any purpose except mining. After the mine is played out, the land is reclaimed and filled in and replanted making it highly sought after for farm land or housing developments. This isn’t how it always was, but I’m glad it’s the way it is now.
Now if we can just get the environmentalists to lay off the B.S. about coal and global warming we’ll all be better off.
The two principle sources of the energy that lifts our life style above pre-industrial levels (Hard, mean, solitary, brutish and short) are petroleum based transportation and electricity. In the US, the largest source of electrical energy is coal generation. The only viable non-poluting alternative sources of generating electricity are hydro which are already all in use (and which some some enviro-wackos in the PacNW not to knock holes in!) and nuclear. Who stands in the way of nuclear? Why, it’s those same enviro-wackos.
This orchestrated hysteria over anthrogenic global warming ignores two inconvenient truths. If the Earth hadn’t been naturally warming for the last 20 or 30 thousand years, the northen quarter of the country would now be under a sheet of ice. Inconvenient truth no 2 (both puns intended) Mars is experiencing comprable warming and shrinkage of polar ice caps w/o any anthrogenic input (unless you count NASA’s Mars Rover which is, after all, solar powered). Let’s see now, what common source of heat is shared by both Earth and Mars? Oh yes, the Sun.
I suppose while we’re at this, we could question autoracks, lumber-laden flatcars, and any number of other revenue-generating loads that trains have hauled. No mules either, since they were put to use to questionable purposes over the millenia. No TV sets, no telescopes or metal observatory domes, no steeples, …heck, the ethical modeller really has no recourse except to the model of a pristine forest…oh, and we’ll add a nice little lake, too.
Okay, that went from the sublime to the ridiculous, but I hope it illustrates that the premise is a bit silly, or at least, its effect will be arbitrary and relegate every one of us to a place of our chosing on a continuum, and which we will all be required to defend ad nauseum, ad infinitum, on other threads over the next couple of centuries.
No, thanks.
Edit - Shawnee, I regret not at least welcoming you as Chuck did. I apologize, and hope you won’t take my sentiments as a rejection of you. Not at all!
You know I would wonder if by this logic passenger travel is the most “unethical” of all to model. After all, you’re transporting the very polluters themselves, people haha!
I’ll personally tell you that I see my share of politics in the news, at work and at my fair university. I’m keeping my layout a politically-correct-free-zone. I’m going to put whatever kind of trains I like and are prototypical on it. There aren’t any coal trains on my line but there are a few lumber ones, and I don’t give it a second thought, but that’s me.
Now if you’d like some things to ease your mind when it comes to railroading think about this:
Most lumber is now farmed not cut from old growth trees.
The burning of coal by powerplants is now cleaner and far more effecient than it has ever been thanks to new technologies.
Nuclear matterials carried by train are held in fortified containers and are garded very well. (they are also some really cool modeling too thanks to the special conditions which their transportation requires)
Just imagine how many trucks even a single intermodal train takes off the interstates.
A provocative start on the forum [#welcome]… hope that you’re not a troll [V]
As a non-American I could look at all sorts of things that have been done in/by the US and think “No way”! Against that since starting in American Railroads I’ve learnt a huge amount of things about America and Americans… including that they are pretty much like other humans on the planet (despite some of the things that some people say). Did you know for example that they’re not all like George W, the Clintons or “The West Wing”? That’s just for starters. Also there’s nice ones. nasty ones and everything in between.
Hope that you have a good model railroading time here. [8D]
Having read and researched considerably the subject of mining in Illinois during the early part of the 20th Century, I have found myself increasingly drawn to this fascinating industry. Has there ever been the time when mining was not at the center of some sort of social controversy? You think of the history of child labor laws in the West, the birth and growth of the labor unions, the constant flood of immigrants to the US to work in these places, and of course environmental issues. Consider that this industry powered the industrial revolution and had a huge impact on the development of the very trains that we love. The world would not be the place we live in now without it. With all its failings I happen to think we live in an amazing time. However, my real fascintation has been with the people.
When a young man in the late 1890’s walked away from his home in Italy, Ireland, Poland, Croatia and the rest of the Austrian Empire, or any other European nation was a life in the deep mines of the US what he had in mind for his future? Was life so bad in the homeland that they were willing to risk their lives everyday in poor work conditions with virtually no access to health-care for the inevitable problems they would have?
In the last 2 years I have followed the path of one such man from a hilltop village in Croatia, via Rotterdam, Ellis Island, to Illinois, where he died 30 years later crushed in the mine. A US citizen at the end. For me modelling mining is more about offering a tribute to these people that did something to try and better their future and in doing so contributed to the fabric of this great country.
There will always be controversy over this industry. Just Google “long-wall mining” to see that even current underground extraction methods have plenty of issues as well. Looking at what long-wall can do to the surface, I am somewhat surprised that strip mining followed by caref
I guess I ought to aplogize for starting on the forum in a controversial way, and I don’t want to be labeled a “wacko”. I’m actually quite reasonable. [;)]
I acknowledge that in general, railroads are more efficient than ever, and are increasingly taking trucks off the road, which is a good thing indeed. I also think rail passenger travle is on a major comeback in this energy-challenges age, and that’s overdo as a more efficient means. It’s not the railroad that i took issue with, but who they serve, and abet. Not that business ought to or can have a conscious. But I look at those NS and CSX traveling through central VA in a new light.
I didn’t get my info from greenpeace, but from a a great variety of sources, both local appalachia, fed, newspapers, even the site of Massey Energy. Although the last was obviously a PR gloss.
All I’m saying is that we’re naiive if we think that strip mining is “better” these days, that the land is returned to garden form and is highly sought after for farming and parks. It’s a permanent scar on the land, unusable for agriculture for the most part, as far as I have read. The coal companies have no more interest in returning the land to usable form than they have they absolutely must, and the fed management of the result is lame. I guess places like Southern West Virginia have a history of being taken advantage of.
With Mountaintop removal it’s actually worse than ever! The “valley fills” they do stuff streams and clearly alter the natural environment…they’re basically destroying mountains. They are not returning the mountain to its natural form. They plant the land with fast growing, inexpensive invasive plants not native to the region, which spread throughoutr adjacent land…all sort os ancillary problems like that. The feds enable this…current ad
Hmm…The info I’ve seen says the reclaimed land is highly sought after by farmers and ranchers because of the rich layer of top soil that is put down. The feds are pretty stricked about this.(now)
You want to see somthing sad, look at mining practices in China and Russia.
If you have personal convictions against something, then you don’t have to model it on your layout.
That being said, you have to ask yourself what are the problems with coal mining? Are they unique to the particular company and geographic region you mentioned, or is it pretty much universal all over the country/world? Is there any example of an acceptable process in practice in the US or in the world? The reality is that we get a lot of our energy from coal that is mined in the US. So then the question becomes, is there any way to mine the coal that is cost effective and environmentally friendly? I suspect that if you ask enough people, you will eventually get an answer of “no.”
The reality is that you can argue that anything we humans do has a negative impact on the environment in some way. There’s no shortage of reasons to feel guilty about just about anything. In 100 years, when we’ve switched to all solar and wind power, people will be arguing that all the windmills are interrupting the migration patterns of an endangered species, and all the solar panels are cluttering up the view of nature.
I understand people may have concerns about some aspects of the coal industry and its practices, but it’s hard to be anti-coal power because most of us benefit from it in one way or another. Coal power may have some bad secondary effects, but what are the realistic alternatives? At some point, you have to have a certain degree of acceptance of environmental degradation in exchange for a cheap, plentiful energy source. Just how much you are willing to tolerate depends on the person.
If a person wants to be anti-coal, then that’s fine. But they have to completey divorce themselves from it. That means disconnecting the main power feed to your house and installing a bunch of solar panels on the roof. What about the company you work for? Where do they get their power from? Might have to look for another place to work. How about the stores
I wonder about wind powered generation. If you use blades to rob the wind of kinetic energy, what will the effect be over time and distance? Huge wind farms here and there will have to have an effect that we haven’t anticipated, and then we’ll jump on the Oh-My-God-the SKy-is-Falling bandwagon once more.
That does it. I’m recylcling all of my coal hoppers. After conversion, they will haul nothing but new solar panals and wind turbines. …and btw, I’ll reduce fuel consumtion by always running the trains downhill.
I remember reading (in Trains, I think) that back in the late 80s or early 90s a large coal mining operation was considering building a coal “pipline” through the Blue Ridge mountains. The railroads and the “environmentalists” joined forced to defeat the project.
The railroads objected to it because it would mean lost revenue for them.
The “environmentalist” objected because of the “damage” it would cause to the environment.
As the saying goes, “politics makes strange bedfellows”.
I guess I’m an “enviro-wacko” so maybe it’s time for my [2c]
Now, I’m kinda new around these parts, but it is disturbing to find so many throwing around insulting words that only fragment people and create animosity.
And since I am a “wacko”, it bothers to me see so much mistrust and misunderstanding. While I can’t speak for all wackos, it might interest you to know that neither myself, nor many other wackos I know are completely against human use of natural resources. I understand the need for raw materials, and I am aware of how the world goes 'round. And I firmly believe that it is possible for industry and “enviros” to work together. In fact, that’s the only way. Making enemies of each other accomplishes nothing. It becomes a war of who is right and who is wrong instead of focusing on the real goal of living in and maintaining a healthy environment (which really shouldn’t be controversial at all).
It also isn’t hypocritcal to have legitimate concerns about the environmental impact of industry while still benefiting from coal, oil, etc. The key for myself and other wackos is recognize the impacts that we all have and to take as many steps as possible to reduce that impact. Mostly through trying to live life as efficiently as possible by not wasting energy or resources. For instance:
I live very close to work, on purpose, so it is easy for me to either walk or bike to work. My house is in an older, established neighborhood, close to the bus line and very close to shopping and entertainment. I use energy-efficient CFC bulbs in my house. I try to buy locally produced food as much as possible to cut down on energy it takes to transport food thousands of miles. I buy my electricity from a co-op that does supply fossil fuel energy, but also promotes the use of renewable and sustainable resources as much as possible. Hopefully, with enough support,
Thanks for your thoughtful response, millrace. I would normally agree that there is room for eveyone if we all agree to get along…but the premise is false. There simply isn’t enough room for “all of us” because as we find ways to accommodate all the apparent problems, we make it convenient and more comfortable for more of us to be there. In other words, population growth takes place after major advances in techonoloogy and in science, not the least of which are medicine and food production.
This is so clearly evident that one would have to be an imbecile to deny it. Look at our record since 1950; as we shipped our WWII technology around the world to third world countries, we encouraged unbridled population growth. It isn’t our mining that is killing us, …we, all 6 billion of us, growing at 10,000 souls each minute (okay, and losing 8000), are spilling into the comfort zone we make for ourselves with each new advance in thinking.
If we could find a way to convince the populations to keep to a size of between 500M and 1B, we would probably be able to save the planet with all of our documentaries and angst…but not the way we are going about it now.
…and into glass windows in hi-rises everywhere, into my radiator rarely, and so on. Like stokedsa and I opine, humans are the worse thing to happen to the planet…and we are growing in number. And will continue to grow until some horrible stasis is reached, or until we populate another planet someplace.
Oh well, at 55 I have stopped having kids, so I am no longer part of the problem…[:-^]
