I don’t look at rivet counters as bad people but someone that should be looked up to. I think the rivet counters people were bringing up in that other thread are the “wannabee” rivet counters, the ones that think they know everything. All the real one’s I’ve met are very helpful and very down to earth people with no attitudes. If I had the time and patience and skill level to produce some of the things I’ve seen then I might become a rivet counter. I pride myself on building very highly detailed buildings but as for building a 100% acurate steam loco for example, good luck, I’ll leave that to someone else for now.
A major issue people have with “rivet counting” is people making unsolicited comments/advice/or critiques.
Unsolicited comments are discouraged UNLESS they are the rah-rah “Family Feud” comments (“Good answer! Good answer!”) You could dip a engine in a bucket of mud and get 10 posts saying what a great weathering job you did on this and most other general information forums. To me that really diminishes the value of the foroum. If the members think a really bad looking result is a “great job”, can they be trusted to give a “critical” evaluation of of anybody’s work? I’ll say it, sometimes the end result of a modeling project looks like crap. If person A posts a picture of a Tyco F unit painted with latex house paint and 3" brush, lettered with stick on scrap book letters and that’s a “good job”, when person B superdetails and weathers an Genisis unit to match a specific unit as exactly as they can and that’s a “good job”, has person A been played for the fool or has person B been insulted? Of what value does constant ego stroking make the forum?
Is exclusively sugary, ego stroking really better than ego threatening criticism? Are people that insecure? Are the forums “lowering the bar” on modeling?
If somebody does ask for a critique and is given critical feedback, chances are there will be as many or more posts telling them not to listen to the feedback, that they can do it any way they want. Is the “don’t pay attention to prototype, do what you want” approach just as bad for the modeler as the “rivet counter” approach? If the person is asking for a critique is told “don’t pay attention to prototype, do what you want”, is that as inappropriate and unhelpful a response as the person who doesn’t ask for a critque recieving an unsolicited one?
You find rivet counters in just about every hobby you get into. I am just leaving model building and if you think the counters are bad in this hobby, try that one. Even my wife has to deal with stitch counters in her embroadery groups. It is just a fact of life. Now is it a bad thing? Sometimes yes and sometimes no. I will share something from my past hobby.
A fairly new company on the model scene came out with a long awaited 1/350 scale carrier kit. Overall to many, the kits was nice and a welcomed item on the market. But in walk the rivet counters. They find that the hull is wrong, the bow is misshaped and several other almost un-noticable things. They litterally crucify the model and the company on all the model forums. Said model company could have said the heck with ya then and went on and kept making other models inother genres. But they didn’t. They listened to the rivet counters and the next kit they put out was way better.
See to me, rivet counting is good when you are looking at accuracy of certain things. This ready to run stuff seems to be the trend now and I have to accept that. But if they tell me the RTR stuff is more accurate than any box kit and add-ons then I want it to be more accurate. I value the opinions of rivet counters because they help me decide where my money will be spent. If I am going to dump $250 into an engine, I want it to be almost 100% accurate.
With accuracy does come cost. I am switchign hobbies because I can no longer afford the high price of accurate model kits. It is beginning to look like I can’t afford this hobby either. To finish the story above, the next kit was nicer because they listened to the rivet counters, but it also came out with a $50 higher MSRP due to the extra effort they put into it. So being picky about things brought us a better model, but we also paid the price for it.
Oh and you think these threads get bad, Try arguing about how many
Maybe we should avoid using labels entirely when it comes to assigning, or attributing, or describing ways of enjoying the hobby. That would mean not applying names to people that do not appear on their birth certificates, or that are not recognized professional titles and designations.
Labels have a way of establishing a pecking order that some people, quite rightly, defy and reject. Yet, we will all continue to judge each other by our own standards. The trouble comes when one or more people insist, stridently, that what they do has more merit than what others do. That applies to both extremes, the ‘dabblers’ and the ‘rivet counters’. The hobby offers much to all comers. People are always free to take and to leave what they wish. They can always come back for more. Those who have ‘more’ to offer are always here to offer it. But, it should be offered, and not thrown, hosed, shouted, or dropped from dizzying heights.
We should each define our own fun, and evolve as we think best in the hobby. The name calling, which is what this is, serves no useful purpose except to polarize the population and curb useful exchanges of information.
-Crandell
Good to know.
And here I thought the Rivet Counter was a place to sit at Elliott’s Trackside Diner!
Learn something every day!
[;)]
Dave H. - Your points are well made. Hopefully they will be well taken also. There is far too much of the ‘good job’ and ‘inspirational’ comments thrown around than people really trying to ‘inspire’ someone to continue down the neverending path of modeling/skill improvement.
Now, let’s all hold hands and sing.
[quote user=“Silver Pilot”]
It is because of ‘rivet counters’ that manufacturers have come out with highly detailed, accurate models over the last number of years. It is the rivet counters who are a source of information and data to manufacturers looking to produce a accurate model of a GP38-2 or a PRR caboose or any of the passenger cars introduced. It is the rivet counters that scour over pre-production models, often at the manufacturer’s request, to make certain that the windows and doors are in the correct location, the height is correct and that the paint schemes are accurate in the areas of color, size and location of lettering.
Without rivet counters we’d probably be left with Athearn wide body locomotives, F units with incorrect nose shapes (there is a d
I suppose I fall into the ‘middle of the road’ category, but I do like my steam locomotives to be as representational of the railroad(s) that I model as I can possibly get them.
I have several friends at my LHS’s here in the Sacramento area that ARE “Rivet Counters”, and frankly, they’ve been a pretty big help to me in a lot of cases. I remember buying a consignment brass loco of a Rio Grande 3-cylinder 1600 class Mountain (unpainted), and as we were test running the little devil, the guy asked me what number I was going to assign it. Well, I knew that there were 10 total of these locos on the Rio Grande. He then told me that the 1600’s came from Baldwin with two distinctive types of feed-water heater (mine was an Elesco) and to be sure and look up the correct numbers in my Rio Grande book for this particular one.
“Oh, definitely,” I nodded.
He chuckled. “Well, you never know about you musicians.”
I laughed. He’s right, you know. This guy can come over and count the ‘rivets’ on my layout anytime he wants, because he’s genuinely helpful. And he knows his stuff.
I worry about the “Zealots” (though I’ve only ever met one or two), but the person who is actually HELPING you strive for accuracy in your modeling is just fine by me.
Bring 'em on, I say. [:P]
Tom [:)]
I’ve come to think of this approach as more “know what you want”. As I posted in another thread recently, unless you are modeling to someone else’s specifications (a customer, contest, friend, club, etc.), you and you alone are the sole judge of what is “good enough” for you and what bothers you. You set your own bar, and any negative feedback, solicited or not, can be judged against that bar. You may even move your bar up or down based on the feedback, but at the end of the day, it’s still your call. I don’t think this is a cop-out, it’s knowing yourself and setting your goals.
It also helps to be mature enough to accept the good with the bad when you “put something out there”, even if the comments are delivered by someone who lacks the same maturity or tact.
The term, “Rivet Counter,” has received a perjorative overtone because there are a few folks who insist that YOUR rivets have to conform to THEIR idea of what’s right and proper. OTOH, there are lots of experts who are happy to share their knowledge - if you ask for such help.
A quick way to tell the difference? The helpful ones will ASK what you are trying to do. The less-helpful ones will TELL all and sundry when they see something ‘wrong,’ even when they don’t have the faintest idea of what is (and is not) right.
I have a good bit of seniority as a model railroader, but I’m the first to concede that there are gaping holes in my knowledge and experience. That’s why I usually start a conversation with a question. Or, if someone asks a question, I will attempt to provide the answer if I can, but will use the honest answer, “I don’t know,” if the question is beyond the rather limited borders of my expertise.
What’s really pathetic is learning that some loud, pushy, “My way or else,” type is really outside of his (her) area of expertise, and is trying to wing it. What’s sad is that such people will seldom accept correction gracefully.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Very good point and I agree that would be best. Unfortunately, that would make us all modelers, and we’ve been told point blank many times, we do not qualify. Some have created a distinction and now don’t like it. I do like the Zealot phrase. Would that make the FEW happy? I think not.
Are there just a few that feel we can do what we want? Is it an excuse? Are we wrong? Well take a look at the Worlds Greatest Hobby pamphlet, or whatever you call it, that was just received recently. The second paragraph on the very first page under the title “Why it’s “The World’s Greatest Hobby””. And I quote " In a word, the answer is “choice”. Unlike other leisure-time activities, model railroading doesn’t have a right and wrong way to do things. You can participate in a way that works for you. And since you’ve customized the hobby to your tastes and needs, you’re definitely going to have a good time." And it continues. Nowhere have I ever read that Model Railroading must consist of anything, other than probably a train. I also have never read where in order to participate you must maintain a certain level of accuracy or skill. If there is please let me know before I sink too much more money in it.
From my take as a person who is a mix of Casual, dabbler, and Average Joe, I don’t really care what someone thinks of my work as a fairly newcomer and probably won’t take to heart as I progress. I don’t care if you don’t like my MRR habits or how I choose to build my RR. Just like I don’t care if people like me. But, if you
Good Lord Man !!![:O] What color carpet did you go and put in your hallway???
(Sorry- the [}:)] made me do it. )
UP yellow. But it wasn’t quite the right shade. [(-D][:o)]
You must have used Polly Scale instead of Floquil![;)]
Ricky
At one time during my 40+ years in the hobby everything I did had to be just right, every nut and bolt of detail in just the right place, every blade of grass standing up just right. Today I just can’t believe I was so shallow in my thinking, I just don’t care anymore. The detail off the shelf is good enough. If anybody has a problem with it, well, that’s their problem. It’s my model, I’ll do what I please with it.
Just as well. You know how that stuff looks when it gets dirty. [;)]
What I find interesting is that it is very hard for someone to be a rivet counter or whatnot in every facet of this hobby. There are so many different things that compose a model railroad and make it outstanding or not. Those things (IMO that are most successful) are usually put together to form a scene that is pleasant for us to view. Intricate detail on all facets of model railroading in really impractical. Some may strive for prototype fidelity in their motive power. Others like to super detail rolling stock. Some are excellent at weathering. Others have amazingly detailed track. Each of us has his/her own special interest in the hobby. It doesn’t make it right or wrong to park your beautifully detailed steam engine next to an unpainted shiny plastic roundhouse. You may say look a my awesome locomotive - accurate down to the last rivet and I may say look at that unfinished roundhouse. That’s the true beauty of the hobby neither one of us is “correct”.
Chris
Then it wasn’t licensed?
[:O] Oh NO!! I didn’t think about that! Well, there goes my hobby bucks for the next 400 years. Oh wait! I freelance. I’ll call it something else and be OK. [(-D][(-D]
By the way, no sarcasm or hidden meaning. I do freelance and I do make things up as I go. [^]
Just make sure the legal papers are in order[:-,][(-D]
Really, this kind of label mongering does come across like any labeling scenario that has pestered all manner of endeavours since who knows when-------must be all marking behaviour[swg]
Sometimes distinctions do come in handy though in MRR. If I wanted specific information on a specific locomotive I might want to know whether someone is a “rivet counter” in that area. And not a, say, brick collector-----differences are just that —differences. They are not hierarchical in themselves----we turn them into those hierarchies. And that is where the hoohaw starts–[:-^]