There is a much viewed current post on this forum titled Annoying Train Show Patrons. These annoying people are characterized as “rivet counters” by some forumites.
I was particularly amused by a post from grizlump who identified rivet counters as follows: they usually take up counter space and the owner’s time by holding court and lecturing on the thread pitch of GP-7 door hinge bolts or some other asinine subject.
I love it!
But, what exactly is a rivet counter and what type of religious adherence to prototype does a rivet counter demand?
(Well, I hope this thread and topic doesn’t eventually end up in a land fill somewhere.)
Rich, there are two types of rivet counters: Good ones and bad ones.
The good ones have an acute awareness of (and are sticklers for) details and want to create a layout or model of theirs that is as accurate as possible.
The bad ones may or may not have the same traits as the good rivet counters but their flaw is making sure that they point out the “flaws and inaccuracies” on other’s layouts and models.
As someone stated on the other thread, good rivet counters are most likely responsible for the highly accurate models that we see and enjoy today on the market. To that we should be grateful. The bad rivet counters? They just end up trying the patience of everyone else around them.
Like everything this hobby has various levels of accuracy. A Rivet Counter is generally meant to describe a person who wants his model so accurate he will go as far as to even count the rivets on the prototype to make sure the model matches.
However, somewhere along the way Rivet Counter has been used in a not so flattering way. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being a Rivet Counter. If they choose to model that accurately, fantastic. I love to see their work it is inspiring. Rivet Counter to me is no different than saying a “Super Detail Modeler” nor is it any more insulting. The problem is a VERY small percentage of people, and I won’t say they’re all Rivet Counters because it is not exclusive to them by any means, well, let’s just say behave arrogantly. (see the thread you mentioned) and because of what they complain about, details, they have given Rivet Counters a bad name.
The vast and over whelming majority of Rivet Counters are wonderful people just like the rest of the Model Railroading world. But in a quiet room you are going to hear the one who isn’t, loud and clear. The Rivet Counters who take offense to the term are usually the ones who give the title grief. The others well, like bikers, they know it’s not them that give the bad rap, but that few. I certainly hope the name doesn’t become a derogatory term. I rather like it. I don’t believe I will ever wear the badge, but I certainly respect the ones who do. Well, most any way.
“Rivet Counter” is used as a derogatory term towards modelers that follow a more prototype based form of modeling. Typically the term is used by those modelers who feel intimidated by the "rivet counters’ and is used by modelers who like to justify their modeling by using the phrases “its my model (layout) and I can model whatever I, however I want and nobody can tell me how to model” and “as long as I’m having fun, who cares if its wrong.”
My take on the rivit counter is that s/he–I know of one female rivit counter here!–is usually quite knowledgable about their field of expertise. The ones that I know here are interested—very!–in certain locomotives and/or RR’s and sometimes will tell me about certain things they’ve come across about their RR/locomotives-----and it does help me a lot in explaining to myself why certain things were done in a certain way in the area that I’m modelling. And, yes, thread pitch sometimes does weasel its way in there—after all the Rivit Counters that I know and see at the LHS’s I’ve come across do have a sense of humour–[swg]
As with any colloquial expression, there is no one definition of a “rivet counter”. And, as with virtually all derogatory terms, what a rivet counter is is not defined by rivet counters but by the people disparaging them. I have been called a rivet counter because I wanted my cars to have reasonably accurate numbers. So basically anybody that expresses any opinion regarding any adhereance to prototype can be thought of as a rivet counter by anybody who has a lesser desire for prototype adherance.
It has been my expereance that there are two kinds of Rivet Counters.The first kind willingly share their knowledge of the prototype IF asked.These are the good ones.
The other kind will share their (sometimes faulty) knowledge with you whether you want it or not.
I am I guess by definition a Proto/Freelancer,by that I mean I freelance my own road (Grande Valley Ry) so the locos and such are done my way.Well the GVR connects to several Proto roads and those locos and such by my definition have to look the part.
That being said I rather enjoy the first type of rivet counter because they help me keep my proto stuff believable.The second type can go take a flying …
The above is certainly one of the best definitions of the situation, as a whole, that I’ve seen. Far too often the scale hobby’s “dabblers”, the direct opposites of the so-called rivet counters, will affix the title of rivet counter to anyone whose modelling, or hobby knowledge, is above their own often crude level. The “It’s my layout and I can do whatever and you can’t criticize it” is a likwise over used phrase in the hobby today, usually employed to cover up a lack of modelling effort on the part of the wouldbe hobbyist. Both concepts need to be returned to the toy train arena, where they belong.
I say this because the term “Rivet Counter” originated with the toy train folks in the first place, coming to pass when Lionel issued their pre-war scale Hudson. Claimed to be accurate “down to the last rivet”, some enterprising hobbyist went out and actually countered the rivets on the prototype’s tender and found the Lionel model off by one, or two. On learning of this, J.L.C. announced that he was initiating the position of “Rivet Counter” within the company to insure that such an error would not occur in the future and that his models would henceforth be completely accurate! [;)]
So far we have a very well defined discription of the term, and interpretations of the term, including CNJ’s definition of dabblers, those who don’t get their panty hose in a tizzy over small details and ignore the bigger picture.
Having spent 50 years and a couple over in the hobby, I take middle of the road and am quite happy to be there. On the other hand, I get really irritated at those who stake a narrow claim or stance and then, like Custer, defend it to the death. I like the middle of the road, and I am just as big of a fan of railroads, full size and small as anyone. But I also have other lives to live and other causes to get all emotional over. So I will continue to count rivits to a degree, and accept compromises to a degree, and ignore those who say everything has to meet their standards or it is no good. If that makes me a dabbler in the eyes of some, big deal! Striving for perfection is one thing, claiming ones view of perfection is the only correct one is another.
It is a hobby for crying out loud, not a life and death choice.
I suspected as such!! Thanks for that piece of information----we did have something of a discussion over the phrase last night up here!!
As for the idea that one can sort of stuff the two phrases back into the genie’s bottle I don’t think it’ll work----but but but—like some words in our language have been redefined into other purposes. One, I think, can “de-fang” the phrase by carrying the Rivet Counter flag high and, in so doing, redefine the phrase into something positive----[swg]
Where is a good rivet counter when you need one? I have an HO Faribanks-Morse C-Liner, that came from the factory in SP Daylight colors. I think I might look for a Trainmaster in Black Widow colors to complement it. [:-,]
You need detail-oriented people with a sense of history to keep track of things, and help the rest of us see how things really are/were.
CNJ831 wrote: say this because the term “Rivet Counter” originated with the toy train folks in the first place, coming to pass when Lionel issured their pre-war scale Hudson. Claimed to be accurate “down to the last rivet”, some enterprising hobbyist went out and actually countered the rivets on the prototype’s tender and found the Lionel model off by one, or two. On learning of this, J.L.C. announced that he was initiating the position of “Rivet Counter” within the company to insure that such an error would not occur in the future and that his models would henceforth be completely accurate.
LOL! Now we know!
CNJ,Please don’t lump the dabblers,the causals and average Joe modeler in the same heap since all three are different and pursuing the hobby in the fashion that suits their needs.
Oh, really?! Sounds to me like you are really up tight about it, Bob! [:-^]
Like it or not, a majority of serious, craftman hobbyists do not welcome the recent attempts to dumb down our hobby and reduce it to little more than a subset of playing with Lionels. Rather than having resulted in bringing everyone together, these efforts have separated the hobby into smaller specific groups more than ever and is in part why you see so very few advanced, or well known modelers on this forum. They have gone off and established other forums.
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Let’s keep these exchanges cordial, gentlemen. It would be nice - for a change - if this topic could be discussed without the inevitable, spiraling out-of-control, fireball ending that usually takes place whenever it comes up on the forum. I don’t hold out much hope…but it sure would be nice.
There is nothing wrong with someone who wants to pursue an extremely high level of prototype fidelity in their modeling. Where it becomes irritating is when it becomes almost obsessive compulsive and these folks expect/demand that the rest of the hobby world adhere to their same standard. This manifests itself in two ways. When the rivet counter points out what they perceive as flaws in other people’s modeling or when they whine about a manufacturer who has come out with a new product that is less than 100% accurate to the prototype. In the former case, if some one hasn’t asked for their work to be critiqued, the rivet counter should learn to take that to mean they don’t want their work to be critiqued. In the latter case, if a new product doesn’t live up to their standards, then take it to the work bench and add/fix the inaccurate detail until it does meet their standards. The rest of the world can live with these minor inaccuracies and putting in all that detail could drive the price of the product up to the point where it can’t be sold on a large enough scale for the manufacturer to make a profit.
I have become a “board counter”. In making a diorama of my 150 year old family farm, all I had were old pictures and one remaining board from the barn. With the measurement from that one board, I could count boards on the barn pics and the other buildings and determine the size of the buildings and the windows and the doors. It took some doing, but I have the entire set of structures scaled off that one board and a lot of counting. I look forward to the other “board counters” coming over and seeing how well I did. I will have to explain to some that I had to “cheat” a little to get things to fit. The reason this project is out of styrene instead of wood is because Evergreen had the siding I needed in the right scale.
Hail to all the “rivet counters” who give me credit for effort and not critisism for compromise.
That should look good when it is done-----pix please[swg][bow]
I think modelling does take patience. One has to find enough data on the buildings they are trying to model—like me and my elevators and other buildings[:-^] I just recently realized, for example, that having some kind of a measuring stick–yard stick–is a good idea[:-^] Did I have one? Noooooooo[sigh]
So some of the buildings I’m building are going to be not quite to par in terms of scale size—[:-^]
It is because of ‘rivet counters’ that manufacturers have come out with highly detailed, accurate models over the last number of years. It is the rivet counters who are a source of information and data to manufacturers looking to produce a accurate model of a GP38-2 or a PRR caboose or any of the passenger cars introduced. It is the rivet counters that scour over pre-production models, often at the manufacturer’s request, to make certain that the windows and doors are in the correct location, the height is correct and that the paint schemes are accurate in the areas of color, size and location of lettering.
Without rivet counters we’d probably be left with Athearn wide body locomotives, F units with incorrect nose shapes (there is a difference between an FT nose and
CNJ,Perhaps you need to understand the different hobby groups that makes up our great hobby.
1.Casuals-These kindred folk are (if I may) not “real” hobbyist even tho’ they may have a 4x6’ or 4x8’ Plywood Central layout and maybe run trains once or twice a month(for the boy or grand kids) during the winter and their equipment is the usual train set stuff and haven’t bought anything new in years.They have no clue what a F7A is.
2.Dabblers.Dabblers are those that -well-dabble in the hobby as time permits(usually the winter months-if there isn’t anything good on TV) and not all excited about the hobby since they have their other pursuits such as golf,bowling,fishing etc that requires most of their free time.
3.Average Joes…Average Joes makes up the bulk of the hobby and your most active
Which’ll probably lead to the next step in the bellyache----the high cost of MRing—[:-^]
Anyone who thinks that these ‘Rivet Counters’ are responsible for the supposed high cost might want to check out who buys them—not everyone who is a Rivet Counter buys RTR—the last time I checked–[:-^]