Back in early August 2004 someone posted a very good thread about locomotives that pulled the Santa Fe Super Chief. The poster apparently was concerned about correctly modeling the train. Very good, detailed answers. Most answers were primarily the EMD “F-Units”. (U30CG and FP45s in the late 1960s)
While looking though one of my old books; (Trains, Tracks, and Travel by T.W VanMetre; 1956) there on page 237 was an ALCO DL109 pulling the Super Chief! It’s the front-fireman’s view, but looks like either a B-unit or another DL “A unit” is coupled “back-to-back” with the DL109 lead unit. She’s in the Warbonnet scheme, and has the enclosed front coupler housing. The fireman’s is waving. The striking view makes the locmotive look really sleek. The 3 piece windshield also stands apart from the E & F unit profile.
The Caption Reads: The “Super Chief” with its 4,000 horsepower diesel-electric engine near San Bernandino, California. Of course, we all know that it took two or more units to produce 4,000 horses back then.
I got this book in the 9th grade (1977) from a kind librarian who noticed I checked out the book over and over throughout the school year. 496 pages, hundreds of black & white photos. Amazing what effect an act of kindness can have on a person 24 years later!!
Anyway Just wanted to share that info to show that Super Chief modelers do have other options; plus it’s good to know that there was variety when it came to the Super Chief’s motive power duing the 50s! A chance for Super Chief modelers to show a little more variety with those nice looking Walther’s cars, if desired!
The ‘Super’ was pulled by different engines at different times.
“Blue goose” ( between KC and Chicago) and
4-8-2’s and 4-8-4’s (La Junta west)
Amos 'N Andy
E-1’s
F-3’s/ F-7’s
Alco PA’s/B’s
FP 45’s
I left out some, (but these were the ‘Regular’s’)
The U-30 CG’s were short lived on AT&SF passenger - (they tracked poorly).
The DL-109 couldn’t cut it on Raton 's grades- was relegated to ‘flatland’ service.
E-2’s, 3,s.and 6’s went to the California lines for similar reasons. All ended up being primarily used on connecting lines, and as E-8’s.
Thanks Don! I think it was you that gave the good info recently. Thought I’d mention this as I didn’t see the DL’s listed on that thread, but you indicate that you listed the engines that were normally assigned.
One thing…Please explain what the Amos & Andy locomotives were. I don’t ever recall reading about them on Santa Fe history literature. I’ve very likely seen the official factory designations for them. Were they the Box Cabs with one of them having a “pushed in” face? Got a picture of those units in the book, also.
Santa Fe’s ‘Amos & Andy’ were EMC’s first diesels using Winton engines Essentially they were semi-‘streamlined’ box cabs. This same box engine was used in the Pioneer Zephyr and UP’s M 1000 '‘Worm’ but in different shrouds, and with articulated cars.
Santa Fe wanted to try the EMC/Winton diesel but with conventional Pullman heavyeight’s behind it. Essentially ’ Amos & Andy’ were 2 Box cabs with ‘eyebrows’…
Hallmark /KMT has been the only one to model this .
PS: The DL109/110 was an AB combo on the Santa Fe. (They only ordered one set). I’m sure the picture you saw was this combination, as there were no others. Sadly, Proto 1K has not offered the ‘B’ unit.
Thanks for the info Don! It’s interesting that some of the diesels couldn’t “cut it” through Raton. Sounds like they either couldn’t produce the horsepower on the grades. I wonder if the higher altitudes were a factor?
Re: The DL109. The shot in my book does look like a typical publicity shot of that time period where the trains always looked clean and uniform (reality was something else!). Looks like the PAs were the marked successors to the 109s as they did pull the Chiefs more often.
Hope this helps, The DL-109-Dl110 set operated one trip after delivery at the head of the SUPER CHIEF. The reason was to compare them to the E-1 A-B usually assigned they made one trip to LA and return then were assigned to the midwest for the remainder of their careeers on the Santa Fe.
Amos & Andy were assigned to the original heavyweight Super Chief and one of these units plus a EMC Boxcag operated the first streamlined Super Chief as the E1 units were suffering teething problems.
The postwar PA -PB-PA sets became regular power for the Chief and other assignments but the Super Chief by this time became the regular assignmnet of A-B-B-A sets of F-3 units from EMD.
The FT A-B-B-A sets converted from freight power at the end of WW-II were regularly assigned to the Chief until replaced by the PA units. PA units also operated in the Texas Chief, Golden Gates, San Diegans.
The last power assigned to the Super Chief before Amtrak were the FP-45 units from EMD. The U-30CG units probably made one or two trips on the Super Chief but were found lacking in the Mountains and were generally assigned to the Texas Chief thereafter. The ealier U28-CG units by that time were finding freight assignments. Rarely was steam ever operated on the Super Chief. A failure of a road diesel in the early years would be the only reason a steam loco would ever be found at the head of the Super Chief. From its heavyweight beginnings to Amtrak it was always diesel powered.
Passengerfan, you and Don Gibson really have your ducks in a row! [4:-)][tup]
I like the fact that my favorite diesel, of course, was the last one to haul the famous streamliner before the “Pointless Arrow” took over. I’ve read about the FP45s quite a bit. With 3,600 horses each and the truck’s high gear ratios, they could slice 90mph with e
Amtrak took over the Chicago - LA run on Santa Fe’s track, and used the name - and Santa Fe objected - so it became the "Southwest Chief’ - essientially an all high level ’ El Capitan’ / Super Chief . Something to do with Santa Fe’s ‘Premium’ train-child image. I don’t remember the time frame but believe this happened shortly after Amatrak took over. Today’s run on Santa Fe track takes about 10 hours longer than when Santa Fe ran it.
Ah Progress!
I believe the problem with the Alco DL-109/110 was too high a gearing for the available power. Ran like stink on the flats though. The subsequent 6000 hp PA-B-A cut it, which Santa Fe ordered big time. Altitude may have had something to do with it, but Santa Fe’s grades weren’t that high (below 7000’) but steep. The original F-3’s sometimes had to use 2-10-2 helpers on 3% Raton (Pronounced Rat -TONE) by the Santa Fe, and 4-6-2’s helpers up Cajon’s 2.2% (Pronounced Cah-HONE) for you non- Spahn-i***ypes. Glad to be of service, In any case, it took some Cahonnes (balls) to get up those (and Glorietta’s) grades.
Someone talked about a photo of a clean and shiny Super Chief locomotive possibly being a publicity shot, that it was not normally so pristine.
On the other hand, I have also heard of the trucks of Santa Fe premiere streamliners being freshly sprayed with aluminum paint before each trip to be pristine looking.
I’m pretty sure it became the “Southwest Limited” initially, and Amtrak was allowed to use the “Southwest Chief” at a later time. I don’t believe the train was ever the “Super Chief” under Amtrak.
You’re correct. In fact this practice lasted for years. At times they even got a little careless. I found a picture of a Santa Fe FP45 pulling a passenger train a year or two before the “Pointless Arrow”. The locomotives had silver overspray on some of the lower red sections!
If you look at some Santa Fe passenger train photos, on some of the F units you’ll see some silver overspray on the red. Be interesting if Santa Fe modelers that run the “Chief” series actually model the overspray on the lower red sections of the body and the nose.
And the Santa Fe had 20 F45s with steam lines. These freight units were often used in combination with FP45s on Santa Fe passenger trains in the late 60s and early 70s before Amtrak.
The Amos and Andy units do hold the prestigous place in history as being the first diesel power to head the Super Chief (heavyweight era). Their truck skirting didn’t last long. They were rebuilt at the Topeka, KS shops in 1938, emerging with the most noticeable change of the front ends with elevated cabs, curved “bulldogish” nose, and in warbonnet colors.
If the rebulds come out in P2K or P1K, I would be one of the first in line to buy them [;)]
You’re right. Amtrak was allowed to use the “Chief” name by ATSF, and did operate the Super Chief/El Capitan as such. They also operated a short-lived “Chief”. ATSF, in a state of justifiable outrage, demanded that Amtrak cease and desist using the Chief moniker in about 1974 when Amtrak, as it usually did and still does, tried to downgrade the long-haul train’s level of service by drastically slowing the train down and eliminating most of the amenities including, among other things, replacing all dining service for the combined train with a single 36 seat diner that would double as a lounge. ATSF rightly claimed that the Chief name, still associated with them, and the Super Chief name in particular, reflected a particular high-level quality of service identified with the railroad in all respects, and that Amtrak’s downgrading of the train would adversely affect that identification, rolling over even into the freight operations. In short, “Chief” was a service mark of ATSF and they angrily jerked the rights to use it that they had given Amtrak in 1971 as part of the takeover. BTW, ATSF almost didn’t join Amtrak, and a lot of pressure was put on them because Amtrak wanted their car fleet, which they immediately took east in 1971 and intended to modify for Northeast Corridor use. But the trucks and undercar equipment wouldn’t clear some of the high platforms on the NEC, and they had steam ejector A/C, so they had to send the cars back west where they replaced the SP junk Amtrak had put on the ex-ATSF trains–poetic justice sometimes happens.
When Amtrak first formed in 1971, the logo was the word Amtrak in blue or black posted right next to a big Blue and Red arrow facing to the right . If you look at the arrow, the end that would normally be sharpened like a regualr arrow was FLAT, vertically! Hence the term “Pointless Arrow”. You’ll hear quite a few railfans use this reference even though that paint scheme has been gone for years.
Just look at a picture of an SDP40F in the orginal “Phase One” paint scheme with the red painted nose. The arrow is on the carbody. There are lots of good shots of these 6 axle giants on www.railpictures.net
Oh, and speaking of the “Pointless Arrow” here’s a another nickname. It was given to the SDP40fs and was rather unflattering, but hilarious. It was coined by an executive at Burlington Northern (I think it was the head honcho ) who subsequently banned the locomotives temporarily from their rails after several, well publicized derailments. These big brutes were nicknamed:
RED RIBBED RAIL RIPPERS!
As much as I liked these units, I laughed hysterically when I first read that! Many speculated that this was why within a few years Amtrak got rid of the “Red Nose” paint scheme and went with the stripes. The F40s and P30s already had the striped schemes when delivered.
I was so glad to hear that 17 or 18 SDP40fs units redeemed themselves after the Santa Fe got them in a trade for CF7s. They racked up hundreds of thousands of miles until their retirement just a few years ago. Justice!
Well one can never say never. I have a photo of an ancient 2-8-2 pulling the GN Empire Builder (regular power failed and they commondiered the closest power off of a local freight). You can bet that wasn’t recorded as being motive power for the Builder.