Santa Fe Super Chief

Model Railroader Prototype information for the modeler
1

I am planning to run a Super Chief Train on my layout, and I have a few questions.

  1. What was the engine used to pull the Super Chief? (I know what it looks like, but I don’t know what the letters and stuff mean. A and B units are about all I know)

  2. Where can I find this unit and the correct passenger cars (on the internet, preferrably)?

  3. What kinds of freight cars should I be running? (era is 1955-1960)

  4. Are there any other diesels from Santa Fe running at this time that I can use for the freight, or should I just go with the Super Chief engine?

2

Try here first: http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/super_chief

Here’s a place to buy on the internet: http://www.traintrack.net/WalthersChief.htm

By 1955, Santa Fe’s freight F units used the “cigar” band scheme: http://www.athearn.com/Genesis/funits/f3santafeyellow/SANTAFE.html rather than the “catwhisker” scheme as shown here: http://www.internettrains.com/inhoscsafece.html

Both Athearn and Intermountain make Santa Fe F-3 and F-7 models in the freight and passenger schemes.

Andre

3

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I’m building in N Scale.

4

You basically don’t have much in the way of equipment that would be correct for the Super Chief except for the car sides by Des Plaines Hobbies. EMD F7’s are correct for the Super Chief. EMD’s F3’s made occassional appearances on the train.
Ch

5

Maybe I am being too picky.

I have most of the cars and locos to model the Super Chief. But it was an all-first-class train that pretty much ran only on the transcontinental mainline with an whole fleet of different appearing passenger trains. Five, six, seven or more daily passenger trains each direction, often with different appearance. I don’t want to model that much traffic.

The Super Chief dome lounge was unlike anything else that ran on any other train, so it would be hard to run the {i}Super Chief[/i] by once and then pretend it is a different train the next time around.

Just my prejudice.

What do the engine numbers and letters mean? Electro-Motive Division of General Motors (EMD) manufactured diesels which were called “F-units”, meant for freight. First were the FTs and Santa Fe got the first big batch of them for freight service during WWII but re-geared some of them for passenger service. Later came F-3s, F-7s and F-9s. Those “F” letters are manufacturer’s terms. Also, generally the cab unit was called the “A” unit and the cabless booster unit called the “B” unit, so you will see diesels decribed as F-7A or F-7B.
Santa Fe also classified its locomotives by the number series it put on the locos, so some will be called in the “16 class” (locos 16 through up into the 30s…), “200 class”, “300 class” and so on. Another thing Santa Fe did which was different from the A and B unit designations that generally apply to F-units. Several units would originally be numbered together as a set by Santa Fe. Say a set of 4 diesels, 2 with cabs and 2 without. The lead unit might have just the number on it, with no suffix, such as #16. It might also be listed in company records as #16L (that is, the lead unit of the set numbered 16.) The next ADDITIONAL unit would be #16A in Santa Fe’s scheme, but it is a “B-unit” (booster) in general EMD terminology. (Confused?) So #16A and #16B would be “B-units” and #16C would be an “A-unit” run b

6

So are you telling me that nobody in the world makes the Super Chief in N Scale? That doesn’t seem right to me, but I’m not an expert.

Also, what types of freight cars/paint schemes should I be running?

Were F Units used in the 1955-1960 era?

What about the normal diesel body engines?

7

Modeling the Super Chief in N scale involves a bunch of different models from different places.

60’ ltwt Budd corrugated RPO: the old ArnoldRapido item#5222 is right on if you can find one.

ltwt corrugated full baggage: Concor item#4231 is close. It has the number 3430 on it but is actually closer to ATSF 3432-3452 series. Concor’s literature says it is modeled after the ATSF 3500 series which were used on the mid-1950s Super Chief, but the 3500s were corrugated with a short section of non-corrugated side next to the baggage doors, so that the corrugations wouldn’t be bunged up by baggage carts. The model appears to be actually built from a California Zephyr prototype, and on the Santa Fe roster, seems closest to 3432-3452 as I said earlier.

About 1960, smooth side “semi-streamlined” baggage cars began running on the Super Chief. Concor’s 1-04081/04082 smoothside full baggage might be used.
Or American Model Builders car sides item#5502 for a Santa Fe smoothside baggage, series 3750-3799.

Ltwt corrugated Baggage-bar lounge-dorm: best “stand-in” is probably Rivarossi baggage-dorm #(not sold separately anymore and sold out in Santa Fe sets.)
It is “dead–on” to Santa Fe baggage-dorm #3477-3479 which was not the series usually assigned to the Super Chief but is a similar authentic Santa Fe car which ran in a similar place in the train. The 1380 series which ran regularly in the Super Chief had a small baggage door on each side flush against the end of the car, large wide windows in a lounge section and a Budd corrugated roof. The Rivarossi car has small windows in a dorm-only part of the car, a baggage door more than ten feet from the end of car (don’t have my scale rule handy) and a Pullman Standard smooth roof (non-corrugated.)

The Super Chief being an all-first-class train had lots of sleeping cars: in the early 1950s, 3 or 4 10-3-2s in the “Blue” series and 3 or 4 4-4-2s in t

8

Thanks, that was a HUGE help. Just a couple more things:

  1. Where can I find a boxed set of 3, 4, or 5 cars that you mentioned? I think that that would work pretty good.

  2. By a “normal diesel-bodied engine”, I meant this type:http://us.st4.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/internettrains_1805_6752584
    However, this was a “Warbonnet.” Would this be OK to run on my layout in this time frame? Would it pull Passenger and freight?

9

That’s an SD-45 and they were never painted in “Warbonnet”. However, Santa Fe did buy some GE U28’s with steam generators (U28CG’s) and they did have a simplified “Warbonnet” scheme. However, I don’t believe those engines ever pulled the Super Chief. Minitrix made an N scale model of the U28C at one time (don’t know if they still do). Santa Fe also had 6 (IIRC) U30CG’s which had a “cowl” type carbody. Minitrix also made a model of the U30CG. I don’t know if those were used on the Super Chief. Here’s a picture of one after repainting to freight colors: http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=ATSF;action=displayphoto;num=1083466236;photo=ATSF/ATSF8002S2.jpg

In the late 60’s, Santa Fe did buy some some FP-45’s. These were essentially lengthened SD-45’s with a “cowl” type car body. I believe they were used on the Super Chief/El Capitan in the late 60’s. Here’s a picture of one on the El Capitan: http://www.dallasrailwaymuseum.com/image/atsf_107_ElCapitan.jpg. Someone did make an FP-45 model in N scale at one time, but it was a dog.

These engines were later rebuilt around 1989/1990 and became part of Santa Fe’s “Super Fleet”.

Stick with the F-7’s. They’re what pulled the Super Chief for most of its life.

Andre

10

I stand corrected. I said something about no mass produced train sets being a model of the actual consist of a real passenger train. I researched KATO’s site and found they are making a really authentic N scale California Zephyr as near as I can tell.

But does that help us model the Santa Fe Super Chief? Well, actually it does because some of the cars they have made, apparently for the California Zephyr are pretty close to Super Chief cars.

KATO has 3 sets in Santa Fe markings.

106-1502
Santa Fe Set A
Diner #1481, RPO #3407,
Observation #3240, Slumbercoach "Buena Siesta
Slumbercoaches were not regularly a part of the Super Chief consist, but at least it is a kind of sleeping car.

106-1603
Santa Fe Set B1
Baggage #3444, Coach #3077, Dome #503, Pullman “Pine Mesa”

106-1604
Santa Fe Set B2
Baggage #3433, Coach #3088, Dome #501, Pullman “Pine Arroyo”

Sets B1 and B2 are identical except for the car names and numbers. If you let the coach serve as a lounge, it would fit an approximation of the Super Chief.

So with one set A and one set B, either B1 or B2, you would have the following consist:
RPO
Baggage
Slumbercoach
Coach (as lounge)
Diner
Dome
Sleeper
Observation

An 8 car train, all corrugated silver, with the signature dome car and the swallowtail end observation.

Is that more Super Chief than your layout can accomodate?

The Concor/Rivarossi 5-car set with baggage-dorm, 2 PS sleepers, dome lounge and swallowtail-end observation also sounded like a good short version of the Super Chief but Concor said it is just not available. Maybe a “secondary market” seller on that online auction site…

Super Chief

11

You can find the KATO site at www.katousa.com

Another way to get a Super Chief set without having to cut up cars and build brass kits would be to assemble a set from individually sold cars from Concor’s Budd series.
See their N scale Budd passenger car page at
http://www.all-railroads.com/instock/nbuddcar.htm

Concor says they have Budd cars currently available in Santa Fe.
1-420101 Sleeper
1-423101 72’ Full baggage
1-424101 Dome car
They also have a coach, slumbercoach and dome observation in the Budd series which you don’t need because they didn’t ever run in the Super Chief.

Concor also says they are soon to release 3 more cars, which would help your train
1-426101 Parlor car (used as a lounge car)
1-427101 72’ RPO
1-428101 Dining Car

I would buy TWO of the sleepers, to make up the following train
RPO
Baggage car
Sleeper
Parlor (as lounge)
Dining Car
Dome Car
Sleeper
(unfortunately, that leaves you without the swallowtail end observation).

12

Now for your second question…
2. By a “normal diesel-bodied engine”, I meant this type:http://us.st4.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/internettrains_1805_6752584
However, this was a “Warbonnet.” Would this be OK to run on my layout in this time frame? Would it pull Passenger and freight?

The picture you referenced was as andrechapelon explained, an SD-45, used as a freight engine. SD-45 is a manufacturer’s term for the same diesel which went to a bunch of railroads.
“Warbonnet” is a term for a paint scheme. The classic red nose with yellow trim and silver body warbonnet scheme was used by Santa Fe for its PASSENGER locomotives from the late 1930s up to joining Amtrak in 1971.
They also had early diesel switchers which were painted black with zebra stripes in the 1940s and 1950s.
switcher in zebra stripes:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/150-50012

The first freight diesels were FTs introduced during WW2, 1940s.
Intermountain FT in ATSF freight “cigar band”
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/85-69013
Santa Fe had them in a couple variations of blue with mostly yellow trim, sometimes just a narrow line of red. Both the FT freight locomotives and the F3s and F7s on the passenger trains, and the longer E-unit diesels were called “carbody” diesels or “covered wagons.”

When diesel manufacturers started taking the lines of the lowly diesel switcher and building bigger diesels to pull trains over the road, they were called at first “road switchers”. Later, most freight locomotives were some variation of this general utilitarian appearance, and “hood unit” is the generic term.
The SD-45 was a second-generation hood unit.

Hood-unit Diesels made by EMD are generally designated GP when they have 2 axle trucks and SD when they have six-axle trucks,

Besides carbody and hood units, there have also been a third general type called cowl units. Amtrak’s first diesels to be bought new, the SDP4

13

Sorry that I can’t help you in N scale. I ended up in modeling the chief in HO. I did not go out to model the chief, but ended up that way.

14

Ok, thanks for these awesome replies. Now, I just have a couple more questions (I know, it seems like they’ll never end). Right now, I am looking at the ConCor Budd Series. I am wondering, can I use their “Dome Observation” model for a swallowtail end car? Also, what would you recommend for, say, a 5-car train.

Right now, I am looking at buying One F unit, two B dummies for engines. Would these look OK pulling the Super Chief and freight?

15

Concor Dome Observation is great for California Zephyr which ran over Burlington, Rio Grande and Western Pacific. But Santa Fe never had anything that looked like it. A swallowtail observation WITHOUT a dome is appropriate.
The observation that is part of the Kato set is appropriate, as would be the observation from the old Rivarossi set which apparently is no longer available. (There were bunches of them made over 30 years under both the Rivarossi and Atlas labels so there are a lot of them out there, maybe on “that” auction site…)

For a 5-car set, the “not-available” Concor/Rivarossi set would be just about right: baggage-dorm, 2 sleepers, dome lounge and observation. But you can’t get it…

Next choice: Santa Fe Set A 106-1502
Diner #1481, RPO #3407,
Observation #3240, Slumbercoach "Buena Siesta

PLUS the Concor dome car 1-424101.
That gives you a head-end car (RPO) at the front of the train, a dome in the middle, an observation on the end and two “other” cars of less obvious type.

By the way, did you know the Super Chief through most of its life was actually SIX trains, or at least six sets of equipment. In order to run a daily schedule in both directions on a 39-hour Chicago to Los Angeles schedule, one train set would leave Chicago in the evening. But the train that left 24 hours earlier would be westbound in Colorado or New Mexico at that time. And there would be a train that came in at mid-day and was being cleaned and serviced at Chicago for the next days use. meanwhile, an eastbound train would be somewhere in say Kansas, and another one would be 24 hours back in New Mexico. And the sixth identical set of equipment would be in Los Angeles being prepared for its late-night departure. It took that many “copies” of the same train to have a daily departure in each direction.

An F-7 or F-3 A-unit and two B-units sounds good for a shortened version of the Super.

16

Ok, well, I think that I’ll buy the five cars you mentioned from the Con-Cor Budd Series, but is there a place where I can just buy an individual sleeper that would look like it goes with the other cars from the Budd Series?

Also, one of you told me to find as many freight car pictures as I could. I instead stumbled across a historical group for the Santa Fe RR and they had all of the logos that they used on the cars and in what era they were used. That site is here: http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Trademarks/Index.htm So, instead of looking up cars, I am simply going to check the logos on the models to find the cars I need. Is this good, or should I be looking for certain paint schemes as well? If so, do you know which ones I should look for?

You also mentioned 2-bay and 3-bay covered hoppers. I know this probably sounds dumb, but what do you mean by this?

17

I left something out in the 5-car set I suggested—

The set that comes as a 4-car set is from KATO
Santa Fe Set A 106-1502
Diner #1481, RPO #3407,
Observation #3240, Slumbercoach "Buena Siesta
That is available ONLY in a 4-car set, and it has the slumbercoach which you don’t really need but is okay for a sleeper.
Sorry I was not clear.

Second Concor DOES have a Santa Fe sleeper it sells individually, which I mentioned in an earlier post.
Concor item# 1-420101
I did not mention it earlier because I was trying to limit it to a 5-car total, and the KATO set has the observation you cannot get anywhere else.
The OTHER Kato set also has a dome lounge which is roughly equivalent to the Concor dome lounge, except that you must buy it in a set from Kato whereas Concor merchandises individual cars. I was trying to figure out the most efficient way to get you a 5-car set from a combination of the available sources.

Still one other matter about your statement: “an individual sleeper that would look like it goes with the other cars from the Budd Series”. (I hope this is not overwhelming you.) When picking out cars to model a Super Chief, I was not specifically looking for “Budd” built cars first. I was looking for cars that matched what ran on the Super, knowing a little about the history of the cars. Many of the specific cars were Budd cars, but not all. In putting its trains together, Santa Fe bought some cars from Budd, some from Pullman-Standard, and a few from ACF (American Car and Foundry). In general, Santa Fe bought more sleepers from Pullman-Standard than Budd, but more of its non-sleeping cars used on the Super Chief from Budd. The difference in appearance: Nearly ALL of the cars regularly used on the Super Chief had unpainted corrugated stainless-steel sides, but the Budd cars generally also had corrugated roofs while the non-Budd cars had non-corrugated roofs.
Budd sleepers on the <

18

Postdog, you asked what I meant by 2-bay and 3-bay covered hoppers. This may be of interest to modelers who wouldn’t look at a [i]Super Chief[/] thread, so I am answering with a new topic called Covered Hoppers for the 1950s.

19

Thanks for your replies. No, you’re not overwhelming me. This is the train I’ve come up with:

Baggage Car-Con Cor Budd
Dining Car-Con Cor Budd
Dome Car-Con Cor Budd
Sleeper-Con Cor Budd
End Observation

Would this make a good 5-car train?

Actually, in my last post, I meant to ask where I can get a swallowtail end observation, not a sleeper. Sorry. Is there a place where I can find one that would go with the train? Is it the same situation as the sleeper (where many brands ran at the same time)?

20

I only know of three corrugated side observation cars without domes that would look anything like the Super Chief “tail car”.

The closest to prototype would be the Concor Rivarossi car which is no longer available from the manufacturer. (But you might be able to buy one used from a store or internet auction. They were made and widely sold for 35 years since late 1960s, manufactured by Rivarossi but sometimes sold under “Atlas” brand.

Next best, and currently available would be the Kato observation which is sold ONLY as part of a set. It is not exactly the same as the Santa Fe car, but close. You’d have to look at it carefully and compare to real train pictures or plans to know the difference. That set comes with an RPO, diner and slumbercoach, which would be a good basis for the main part of your 5-car train.

A tie for third choice: I am not sure if Model Power streamlined cars are currently available. Model Power has in recent years had a series of streamlined corrugated cars that includes an observation. The observation has exactly the same window arrangement and spacing as their coach except for the very end of the observation end. The end is more circular-round than swallow-tailed. It actually is close in appearance to COACH observation #3197 that was used on the Santa Fe on lesser trains than the Super. (Of course, since the Super was A-Number 1, any other train was a lesser!) So it DOES look like a real Santa Fe car, just not a specific one used on the Super. The observation used on the Super Chief, the “Vista” series, had 4 “drawing rooms”, 1 bedroom AND an observation-lounge. So it was part sleeping car and part observation. By the way, the “Vista” series was converted in 1956 from swallowtail end to blunt square end so it could run anywhere in a train, not just as the tail car. It still had observation windows looking out through the flat square end of the car. I have a flat-end corrugated lounge-observation car f