It is not just being “far removed from the nostalgia for steam” but also the respect and understanding of what is was and what it did. Also the entertainment value of seeing all the parts move and the steam and smoke surrounding it with the foreground and background sounds only a steam engine can produce. Their imaginations are so deep into Disney Inc. tricks and cartoons that reality is not real to them.
Thomas the tank is ingrained so much into the minds of children. How would they react if a diesel pushed replica is instituted.
The Thomas “family” is so broad that putting a Diesel sub in would have less effect than one might think. “Dart,” “Den,” “Dennis,” “Derek,” and even “Diesel” would be able to serve ably. Granted, they’re not the same as steam.
In reality, “Thomas” is usually staffed by a local crew member whose only job is to put smoke pellets in the appropriate place. Power is provided by a locomotive at the other end of the train…
http://www.chancerides.com/peoplemovers/cphuntington_train.html
If its true I’d bet a dollar its something like this in mind, steamie shell, dismal guts, can’t get anymore fake than that, but that is what Disney has been all about since the day it opened, artificial reality.
Speaking of Thomas… Does Disney own Thomas yet?
That C.P. Huntington unit is, to give credit where it’s due, actually a nice looking piece of equipment. However according to the spec sheet it’s 24" gauge. That’d be OK for a small amusement park or county park, but it wouldn’t cut it for a big one like WDW.
By the way, Strasburg Railroad’s “Thomas” is live steam, rebuilt from an 0-6-0T.
ALL Disney trains in america are 36" gauge
they burn the oil produced by the restaurants in the park
why would Disney choose to go from a free fuel with retirees at the controls to Diesel Fuel?
Disney still has uses for trains:
The Wizard World of Harry Potter opening in Florida has a Hogwarts express being built with it. From photos I seen* it looks like a lighter duty elevated train/people mover (disguised quite well as the Hogwarts Express). The coaches will have screens instead of windows so it appears that you are traveling from King’s Cross to Hogsmeade, instead of going through a backlot.
From https://www.universalorlando.com/Theme-Parks/Wizarding-World-of-Harry-Potter-Hogwarts-Express.aspx
"If you have a Park-to-Park Ticket or Annual Pass, you can pass through platform 9 ¾™ and board the Hogwarts™ Express* from King’s Cross Station in London, located inside Universal Studios Florida® theme park, and travel to Hogsmeade™ Station, located inside Universal’s Islands of Adventure® theme park (right next door to Universal Studios®). Or you can ride the train in the other direction—it’s a different experience each way! *Additional restrictions apply.] "
First about Thomas…there are several units out there which are dummy steam actually needing a diesel to push from the hind end or is itself a diesel or gas engine with steam locomotive shrouding.
Second Disney and restaurant oil for fuel. Diesels use that just as well.
It’s good that the kids that like Thomas haven’t lost their imagination like most adults.
Right on, Zug!
The original source for much of this is, or claims to be connected with, Disney ‘insiders’
What I am piecing together is that this really doesn’t have as much to do with the steam locomotives themselves as it does with the very expensive backshop operations – in a sense, we are seeing some of the economic arguments for first-generation dieselization in this context. Very few if any Disney World visitors come to tour the steam shops, or comprehend the amount of work necessary for first-class reliability-assured service on this kind of motive power.
So what is actually being ‘eliminated’ is the shops and back end, not the steam power itself – and perhaps, given that, it’s a good thing that ‘all new’ replica diesel-hydraulic power would be built, rather than some kludge conversion of the existing locomotives.
In my opinion, directed attention from the ‘fan community’ needs to be looking at ways for Disney either to market or outsource the shop and support operations … either one might make it cost-effective to carry on, whereas it is not now.
If they are contemplating going to something other than live steam then it is NOT the cost of fuel that is driving it.
Even if they are not subject to FRA rules (they are insular, do not cross a Federal highway, etc.) they are still subject to the Boiler and Pressure Vessel rules and regulations of the State of Florida, which “could be” more restrictive than the FRA rules or might even reference the FRA “49 CFR 209 and 230 Inspection and Maintenance Standards for Steam Locomotives; Rule”. (For a good read, do a search for “49CFR230.pdf” and download it… Excellent chronology and minutes of the meetings when the rules were developed!)
Maintenance, Inspections, and other labor intensive costs, as well as the required additional crew for steam operation will be what are driving the bean counters. Although Disney Corporation might be “rolling in dough”, if they don’t mind their expenses they won’t have as much to roll in. If the bean counters see that the expense is worth it, then Steam won’t go away, but if they are convinced it would be cheaper to do otherwise, then…
Dismals right quite well on veggie oil as well as #2 Diesel, so there would be no impact on that, it sounds mostly like Disney wants to retire their sizable steam staff simply to eliminate the payroll and retirement costs. If they can do that by gutting their existing steam engines and rebuilding them like the CP Huntington amusement park engine I posted the link to, or selling off the steamers and using brand new steamie shelled dismals, then they could very well do it.
It wouldnt take much to provide a small steam or fog generator and direct it to the appropriate locations on an engine to give the appearance of steam exhaust and the dismal exhaust could be routed thru the stack, the bonus is that any minimum wage pimply face nerd could run it with minimal training like any other amusement park ride, and you’ve now eliminated alot of highly paid staff from the engineers to the shop crews. Bean counters just love that kind of stuff.
You know, the fact this thread has gone to it’s third page indicates to me there’s a lot of us who feel pretty strongly about this subject.
Yes, the steam shop tour doesn’t get many takers, but probably because it’s so early in the morning. As I understand it you have to be there at 6:30! I don’t know about you but when I’m on vacation the last thing I want to do is roll out of bed before sunrise. We used to call it “zero-dark-thirty” in the Marines for a reason! If there were multiple tours during the day at reasonable times there’d probably be a lot more interest.
Well, THIS is certainly timely!
I just got my latest action-packed issue of “Trains”, and lo and behold there’s an article on amusement park live-steam trains. Included among various parks like Busch Gardens, Knotts Berry Farm, and Dolleywood is, you guessed it, Disneyland and Walt Disney World! No mention of an imminent demise of Disney steam however.
Let’s hope the " ‘Trains’ Curse" doesn’t strike on this one!
There’s supposed to be an on-line video of Disney steam but I haven’t found it. Possibly it’s not posted yet?
So, guys, I sm 8000 miles away. But you in the neighborhood, organize tours that give the Disney people some profit and help preserve wha is important in doing so. But obviously 6:30 in the morning is not going to sell a tour.
“…6:30 in the morning is not going to sell a tour…”
You said it Dave! By comparison, Sea World, just down the road from WDW has behind the scenes tours that occur all day long. Lady Firestorm and I took one of the lab and marine life rescue and rehabilitation facilities tours and it was very interesting, to say the least.
WDW could take a lesson from this.
I’ve never been, but maybe that’s the point? They don’t want 15,000 people a day taking the tour - or else the tour would have to be modified/generalized to lose all significance? It appears to be set up for the true fans to enjoy.
I’m sure 15,000 people a day taking the tour is a generalization Zug, but I doubt it would be that many. At any rate there are ways to put a brake on over-populating tours. Do it by reservation only, put an additional (but reasonable) cost to park admission on the tour, and for, let’s say, safety reasons an age minimum on the tour, no children below the age of 8 or 9.
Get enough people to take the tour and that would help to offset any operating expenses of the backshop.