scale problems with lionel help please

Classic Trains General Discussion
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I have recently started in this great hobby and have run into a small problem. I am scratch building my first building and just got my locomotive. It is a lionel 211 or texas special diesel. Well I was under the assumtion that all lionel trains were a 1:48 scale and that is what I was building my train station to but now that I have my train I can see there is no way that it is a 1:48 scale does anyone have more acurate numbers on lionel trains and there scales. Any help would be awesome thanks.

Nathan

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Oh yeah and I’m runing a lw transformer when I push the whistle button the lights brighten and the train goes faster but no hooting

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Lionel is1:27 scale. 1:48n is HO.

Lionel did make some HO trains.

Try reversing the wires on the transformer.

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<>NO Lionel isn’t 1:27 scale, you’re getting a little confused because of Lionel 0-27 trains/track which is O gauge track forming a 27" diameter circle. Lionel three-rail track is O gauge, 1-1/4th inches between the outer rails.

<><>HO is “half-O” and is 1/87th scale. (In Europe they used a ratio of 1:43.5 for O scale, which is why half O (HO) is 1:87 scale. In the US we use 1:48 scale, which is more convenient as 1/4" = 1’)

Lionel makes some engines cars etc in ‘full’ 1:48th scale, like the F3 and GP-7/9. Their smaller ‘tinplate’ or toy train line is closer to 1:64th scale (3/16th" = 1 foot). Lionel over the years has mixed them together, so some trainsets might have scale-sized F3’s pulling undersized toy train cars.

p.s. I would suggest putting a post on the Classic TOY Trains forum for more help, this forum is for Classic ‘real’ Trains from Classic Trains magazine.[:)]

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In theory, Lionel is O-scale, which is 1/48.

But Lionel through most of it’s history has been firmly in the “toy train” catagory, in which accurate scale models arent really a big priority…so the actual scale dimensions, as compared to the prototype, are generally way off base…

So with Lionel trains, consider them O-scale in terms of size, 1/48, But dont expect them to be scale models…because they are not…they are toy trains…and thus will usually not be anything close to a scale model.

If you want prototypical accuracy in O-scale you have to go in this direction:

http://www.proto48.org/

The opposite direction of the “toy train”-“three rail”-“tinplate” version of O-scale.

O-scale and S-scale suffer greatly (IMO) from the “tinplate” toy train style of model railroading…the three-rails, the really tight curves, etc…not scale.

HO and N dont really have that problem…just about all of HO and N is “scale modeling”…not so with O…In O-scale, about 90% of the cars and locomotives are of the “toy train/timplate” style of model railroading. (not that is there anything wrong with that! :wink:

Its just something you need to be aware of if want to model in 1/48 scale.If you want “scale” in “O-scale”, you need to adopt that Proto48 type concept.

Scot

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Well I disagree that 90% of O scale equipment is out of scale. There a fair number of modellers running 1:48th scale two rail layouts using the many O scale products out there. Many of them using Lionel 1:48th scale building kits, like the grain elevator and Rico depot, and back in the seventies many O scalers modified Lionel GP’s to run on two rails (using Atlas F9 chassis) since that was the only inexpensive plastic GP available in O. Lionel’s F3 and SW7 switchers - while not being fully detailed - are also built to full 1:48 scale size.

One trend in O that started to really build up steam about 25 years ago was the “hi-railer” movement. These are guys using Lionel-type three rail track but using engines, cars, buildings etc. that are 1:48 scale. In recent years, Lionel and MTH have made a number of full scale engines designed to run on three rail track, along with freight and passenger cars, and many other builders now offer their equipment in either two-rail or three-rail versions. Atlas does that I believe.

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Nathan - With Lionel their “O-Standard” gauge is true 1:48 (1/4") scale. I’ve found that the “O” gauge may be closer to around 1:50 scale and the O-27 a variation approaching “S” scale which I think is about 3/16" = 1’.

Unless you have unlimited space you’ll probably selectively compress structures to fit your space. For example I’m building a house for another hobbiest and with the space he has I’m buidling it at 80% of 1/4 scale, not quite S scale.

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There is quite a bit of variation in “scale” for Lionel products. 1/48 is good as a guide. If you are making your own structures, try making a paper or cardboard mock up of it first and then make adjustments to it to give it the right look for you.

underworld[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

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“O scale” means different things to different people !! To correct my earlier post…based on a gauge of 1-1/4", true O scale would be 1:43.5 (which is why HO “Half O” is 1:87). In Europe, they like the metric system more that we do, so they preferred using 1:45 scale (where 7mm=1ft). In the US 1:48th scale was easier, where 1/4" = 1 ft.

So…a manufacturer of O equipment could be using any one of those three…or using one ratio for one model, and a different one for another model…or just make some ratio they like better !!

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The main catagories in O are:

O gauge - various scales, but generally close to 1/64 or close to 1/48 usually operated on tubular track. Track is 5-ft gauge, Lionel, MTH, 3rd-Rail (recently bought by Atlas)

O scale (3-rail) 1/48 scale, usually operated on T-rail track. Track is 5-ft gauge, Atlas, Weaver, Williams, Lionel, MTH, K-Line (now gone with some items marketed by Lionel)

O scale (2-rail) 1/48 scale, 2-rail T-rail track, Track is 5-ft gauge, Atlas, Weaver, Williams, some K-Line (I don’t know if Lionel is selling any of their 2-rail), some MTH (but not recently- correction just found out MTH still offers some of their locos in 2-rail-), small specialty companies (usually kits), various Brass manufactures/importers, detail parts

Proto48 1/48 scale, 2-rail T-rail track, Track is 4’ 8-1/2" gauge. Usually built to finer standards than O scale. small specialty companies (usually kits), detail parts and conversion parts.

Q scale, uses O gauge track (usually T-rail) but porportioned so the gauge is the correct 4’ 8-1/2"

There is a lot of overlap in products between the catagories with modelers doing conversions between them.

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Let me jump in with my explanation.

Lionel is O gauge which means it run on 3 rail track, 1.25" gauge with AC. Lionel makes two scales for O gauge. One is O which is 1:48. The other is O27. O27 is not an exact scale. Lionel reduced the length, width, and height but not proportionately. It is closest to 1:55.

Other manufacturers make (Notably MTH, KLine - taken over by Lionel, Industrial Rail - taken over by Atlas, and Williams) and have made trains for O gauge track. While most of these have been O, some have been O27 and some have been made to other scales smaller than 1:48. These have included 1:55 and 1:64, but there are others.

O scale refers to 2 rail models that are made to 1:48 and run on DC, using a track gauge of 1.25". Because 1.25" scales out to 5’ gauge on the prototype there are two small subsets of O scale to correct this. One is Q scale which uses a scale of 17/64" to the foot (roughly 1:45). The other is Proto48 which uses a track gauge of 1.17".

S gauge and S scale are both 1:64 and use two rail. S gauge is the toy train side and uses .875" track gauge running on AC. S scale is the scale side and uses .883" gauge track running on DC.

In both S and O many manufacturers (but not Lionel) now produce scale models for both the toy train and the scale modelers with the difference being the wheels, couplers, and ac vs dc.

Plasticville and others make buildings that are smaller than 1:48 to match the smaller O27 trains.

[#welcome] to the wonderful wacky world of model railroading.

Enjoy

Paul

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if your talking about the texas special 211 it doesn’t have a horn init.

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027 isn’t really a scale, it refers to Lionel O gauge three-rail track. Lionel for years offered 027 track which made a 27" diameter circle, and O track which made a 31" diameter circle. (The O27 track was a little smaller and the ties a little thinner than O - you couldn’t mix the two together.)

Although it’s possible to run 1:48 scale cars on 027 track using truck mounted couplers (I used to run the 1970’s Atlas O scale 40’ and 50’ cars on my 027 layout back then), trains designed to run on 027 track usually was built to about 1:64th scale. American Flyer in the thirties made some nice “scale-detailed” 1:64th steam engines made to run on O three rail track; later they made 1:64th scale two rail equipment made to run on the correct S scale track for 1:64th trains.

Lionel’s postwar F3, GP7/9, Trainmaster and EMD switcher were all made to 1:48th scale size, though not as fully detailed as their two rail counterparts. The larger ones like the Trainmaster couldn’t run on 027 curves but could run on O.

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Or you could go here and find the answers to your questions;

http://www.trains.com/TRC/CS/forums/95/ShowForum.aspx