I am working on an EMD rebuild of my own design (freelanced Denver & New Orleans), and I decided to do the shell using mostly Cannon parts and styrene. It’s coming along well for a first attempt, but I wonder if using all of those Cannon doors and other EMD parts makes this project something other than a scratchbuilt engine. I made the side sills and pilots out of raw styrene, as well as filling in all of the spaces between the Cannon stuff, so what would you call this?
Gidday, “Having Fun”. [#welcome]
A photo of your project would be interesting if possible.
Cheers, The Bear.
Scratchbuilding.
To me, it is still scratchbuilding even if not every single piece of wood or plastic is cut from a sheet or block.
Kitbashing is borrowing from two or more product items,usually structures or rolling stock, to build your own creation.
I don’t know what scratchbashing is supposed to be.
It is what it is.
Rich
IMHO, if you didn’t start with one or more kits already designed as complete versions of something else [e.g., a locomotive or structure], it is scratchbuilding. There may not be quite as much “glory” attached to using Cannon parts instead of sheet or rod, but hey - life is short!
Kitbashing gets its name because you are “mutilating” - surgically altering - an existing model.
It doesn’t matter what you call it…HAVE FUN.
It’s all semantics, unless it’s for a contest. Then whatever rules apply, most generally those that the NMRA sets out in its AP program. There are specific requirements and definitions that apply to this and they are accessible at the NMRA website:
Sounds like you have a combination of scratch building and parts building.
But unless you’re trying to satisfy the AP requirements (referenced above) there is no generally accepted definition. Quite a few folks seem to define scratch building as anything that is not a kit or modification of an RTR model. Others think you have to have made all the parts yourself. Others are in between.
It’s awkward but you could call it scratch/parts building.
Enjoy
Paul
Years ago, I was at a train show in Dayton, Ohio and ran across plastic carbody parts for an Erie/ErieLackawanna class N3A offset cupola caboose. I’d been looking for a plastic model of this type of caboose only to find it in brass for about $180 a pop; well out of my price range for a caboose. I purchased three sets of these caboose carbody parts, and actually built one of them up some time ago. I used the frame of an old Tyco caboose (modified), fashioned all the grabs and railings and made the roof, as well as the catwalk out of styrene. The only other commercial parts were the trucks, couplers and marker lights.
Question: would that be called a scratchbash, a scratchbuild or a kitbash?
I’d go with kitbash. Fewer letters to spell it out.
Here are a couple of shots. I’m still waiting on the engine room doors.
Why is scratchbuilding even a term?
Do you scratchbuild real houses?
It’s all semantics. Taken to the extreme, to be scratchbuilt you’ve have to make the dirt to plant the tree seed in to grow the tree to make the wood. Absurd.
No, no one scratchbuilds a real house, unless people are out there making molds and pouring in porcelin slurry to make plumbing fixtures. And blowing glass to make light bulbs.
ANd what about early kits, where you got plans, and a bunch of materials, little or none of it pre cut? How is putting one of those together any less of an accomplishment than getting the plans out of a magazine and buying a supply of materials yourself?
I am starting on such a hybrid project myself. The base is a stock Accurail 55 ton 2 bay hopper car. However, I will be buuilding a roof and hatch details to make it a covered hopper (exactly as the prototype did, actually), and the bottoms of the hopper bays have to be modified. Plus paint and decal. So where’s this fall? A slightly modified kit plus additional scratch built elements (from sheet styrene and styrene shapes, and wire).
–Randy
That’s why I think the whole thing is preposterous. Either you built something from a kit or you didn’t. Why does there need to be a special word for “I built this.”
Well, I still say there is a difference betwen taking a bunch of sticks of styrene or wood sheet and building something, vs taking a kit full of pre-cut parts where the window and door openings are already done and the pieces cut to length except for maybe a little sanding to make a smooth edge. What I don;t subscribe to is the idea that taking all those plain pieces and making something out of them is then ruined by throwing in say a commercial oit-belly stove casting. This makes you less of a modeler, because you didn’t hand-carve a stove mold and pour one yourself?
Then there are varying levels of kits. It takes maybe 5 minutes to put together an Athearn Blue Box kit, WAY longer to build a F&C or Sunshine kit. There are definitely different skill levels involved between them. But differing levels of skills in various subjects do not, I feel, make you a better or worse modeler than someone else. I’m good at wiring, I stink at scenery. Other peopel are really great at scenery but stink at wiring. Does that make me betetr then they are? Does that make them better than me? No.
–Randy
I question it because I am using so many commercial parts. It’s not like I’m making each door latch one at a time or what have you.
That said, my approach is on par with what EMD or any diesel shop would do; using a series of prefabricated parts to assemble a locomotive, though I don’t have to worry about the innards in quite the same way. I did have to consider prototype design with this locomotive, since I came up with a whole freelanced idea about how my Denver & New Orleans rebuilds old locomotives into new ones, and even changes the design while they are at it (see Juniata).
This model is actually classified as an SD40-2R, which means, as the story goes, that they started with an SD 40-2 hulk, stripped it, powered it with a 12-710G3 and moved the dynamic brake into an old SD50 brake housing at the rear of the unit (much like modern EMD design). The whole package fits onto the standard 40-2 frame, but gets its horsepower with four fewer cylinders, resulting in a 2-3-3 door configuration for the engine room, instead of the prototype’s 2-4-4.
I have a lot of backstory for my railroad, but we’ll save the rest of that for another time:)
Also, I tried to put up a couple of pictures, but they won’t work here. Do I have to have a few posts up before they will let me post pics?
Mikecore
I don’t know of any restrictions regarding posting pictures, other then that they be appropriate. I would suspect that there must be something with your method that is not compatible with the forum. I posted a detailed explanation of how to post pictures. It is long winded but I was aiming it at the computer dinosaurs (like me) who have a hard time finding the keys let alone following a multi-step procedure. Here is the link:
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/181001/1981556.aspx#1981556
As far as the definitions for scratch building etc., here is my[2c]worth:
If you are starting with a plan but without a manufactured model, then it is scratch building pure and simple. It doesn’t matter what components you are using. The key element is that you are starting with basic components and doing your own thing. This includes cases where you strip out individual components from an existing model to use in your project. The critter in my avatar is scratch built. It is made from brass sheet. The fact that it uses an N scale 0-4-0 drive system doesn’t change the fact. Anyone who says I am not a scratch builder because I use manufactured windows and doors or bells and whistles is taking things to the extreme.
Kitbashing means that you start with a kit and re-arrange/modify/add to the components to create your desired result, but the outcome is a modified (bashed) version of the original.
The word “scratchbashing” doesn’t make sense to me.
Dave
I agree with Dave!
Scratch Building, as I know it, is using general materials, & making something of them from a plan. I have done this with Model RC Aircraft, & model Trains! If it was not a part of an existing locomotive shell or car, & you used sheet styrene or brass as a base, that is scratchbuilt.
The technicality comes into play as to ‘what’ is is scratchbuilt. in my case, I only scratchbuilt the portion that used to be the cab & short hood section of this one locomotive, the rest * other locomotive was kit bashed, as I used existing kits to build a custom model.
Looking at the below pic, I would call the front -8 kit bashed, cuz I used a kit cab on a kit chassis.
However, I would call the unfinished -9 a ScratchBuilt ‘B’ nose on a kit chassis & body. Notating what I actually made for it, from my own desire & fiting it to the existing structure. I would not claim to have scratchbuilt the entire model, just the nose piece.
If I am wrong I would like to hear feedback, also both of these units are unfinished & are in a raw form, & they are not in this state today, as this is an older picture, that I throught applied to this conversation & wanted to share.
Thanks
Scratchbuilding is a term that dates from the era when model railroaders didn’t have access to the enormous stock of model parts we do today–it referred to people who built stuff out of cigar boxes, sheet cardboard, bits of wire, and other cheap stuff that was on hand: model railroading was first becoming popular during the Great Depression and World War II, periods when money and commercially-produced materials were in short supply (some toy train manufacturers even produced paper train kits during the war, because metals were needed for the war effort!) Take a look at old issues of Model Railroader from the 1930s-50s and you’ll find a lot of articles about how to turn common household items into stuff for your layout. The difference was clearer when you set a scratchbuilt model next to the toy trains and accessories of the day, the latter of which were primarily intended as kids’ toys rather than detailed models for an adult hobby.
Decades later, with an enormous wealth of commercial industrial capacity showering us in detail parts and pre-produced materials of all kinds, the line is a lot more gray. According to the NMRA and common practice, it’s still “scratchbuilding” if you are using commercial components in many aspects–motors, wheelsets, trucks, detail parts. So there is more of a continuum…
“Cigar box and cardboard” 100% scratchbuilding, which one could still do in the present day if the modeler wants to prove a point, lives in a remote area or just lacks funds
Modern scratchbuilding using specialty components intended for the modeler, using plans to create something for which there is no commercially available equivalent
Old-school “craftsman” kits which are basically boxes of uncut components, castings and plans for the modeler to cut and assemble, like LaBelle wooden kits (The old conventional wisdom is, "If you want to learn how to scratchbuild wooden cars, build a LaBelle kit.)
Modern laser-cut or modular (Walthers, Woodland Scenics etc.) kits or compon
Here are a few pics of a car shop I am scratch-building.
The drawing I made…(one of three)
Now for the parts.
some windows.
One of the building sides.
Now the dry fit-up…(henceforth the blue tape).
I would love to see a picture of the engine.
To answer your question, it is scratchbuilding, no matter how you look at it.