I have recently installed a Shinohara #6 LH crossover on my layout replacing the Atlas turnouts. It is switched using Tortoise motors and DPDT toggles with LEDs for indication. I have done several of my turnouts this way with no issues but when this crossover is switched it immediately shorts out the DCC system (Lenz LV100). I checked the toggle for any contacts between poles and found none. I manually moved the points to the switched position on either turnout and received the same result: immediate shorting. There were no special instructions that came with this unit and as far as I can tell there should be no issues but I am having one! This is on a mainline run that will be used as a passing section from one main track to the other. I have contacted the place where I purchased it a few days ago but no reply yet so with all the experts here on the MRR site I feel confident I can get an answer!
This sounds like a common problem with the frequent misunderstandings between an all live turnout and a power routing turnout. When I started my layout in 1995 I used Shinohara (Walthers) code 83 turnouts. These are power routing turnouts. The frogs are all metal and the tie bar between the points is NOT insulated. There is a bronze contact strip under the throwbar where the points contact the stock rail.
There are TWO RULES that must be followed to properly electrify power routing turnouts:
current feeders must always be from the point end of the switch and,
any FROG to FROG rail must have an insulated gap or plastic joiner.
Take a look at your turnouts and see if there is a solid metal connection between the points. If there IS all is not lost, just cut a gap with a Dremel wheel or lacking that see if you can carefully remove a rail joiner just beyond the frog. I use a thin strip of styrene and a dab of super glue to secure it in the gap then file smooth.
Your Tortoise, toggle switch and LED will not have any relation to the power at the rails. When you said you have a short when you move the points with your finger that would seem to be a tell-tale sign that you have the power routing turnout.
A few years after I started my layout Walthers code 83 became available in “DCC Friendly” format which, in reality is an “All Live” turnout. The points are insulated from each other and the frog is insulated as well.
Rail A and rail B are electrically contigious through the frog so no additional gapping is required.
If you bought “old stock” Walthers Shinohara you probably got one of the power routing type. All of the code 100 and code 70 Shinohara are power routing as well.
Study the diagrams and comments here and you will begin to see the light…[8D]
Thank you for this information, I am looking at it and studying it as I
write! This unit was a complete unitized crossover and I assume the latest
version from my store Modeltrainstuff.com. There were no illustrations or
any literature with it so I assumed it was installable with my DCC system.
I still have not heard back from them but I will review the illustrations
and try to determine which type I have. I may have to de-solder it and pull
it out of the layout to see the underside for any electrical contacts, etc.
I do not remember seeing any as there are some that have small PCB sections
for those using DCC to control the turnouts. I have chosen the Tortoise
method as I have stated earlier.
As I proceed reading and studying if I run into any peculiar or
questionable areas I will shoot you an email to inquire about it.
Thank you again for your advise and assistance and if I am successful I
will also let you know! I appreciate your input very much! This has
already been a very useful forum for me and I hope to be able to return the
favor to someone some time!
When you mentioned that you bought this LH crossover as a prefab assembly I immediately knew it was not from the Walthers Code 83 line of Shinohara track. Upon checking the MB Klein (Modeltrainstuff) website I see that we are talking the Code 100 line of switches which ARE Power routing along with their code 70 line.
You should NOT have to rip up your crossover. The contacts I am referring to are visible from the top right at the very tip of the switch point. Also you will see a solid METAL bridge soldered between the points.
I have to assume that—as an assembly— there is already an insulating gap in the rail between the two frogs of the crossover. At a minimum, what you will have to do is cut a gap in EACH main line rail just beyond the frog so that when the crossover is thrown you are not shorting out the rest of the layout.
If you do not have a Dremel cut off wheel you could carefully use a very fine (Zona) saw, support the rail and try to cut a gap that way. Your short will disappear. The use of a Tortoise or any other mechanical means of throwing the points is irrelevant to the short circuit you have.
Thank you again for your reply and information! Yes, both turnouts are separated at the point where they are connected. There is a copper colored strip just under the end of the points that is connected to the throw bar. I am not at home right now but I do remember seeing those contact points at the end of the points. I do have a Dremel and a cutoff wheel so I will cut one rail on the main line connection just at the connection point of either side of the crossover and then do a power drop to the contact points on both turnouts making sure to keep the polarity consistent with the main line. I had thought about that as the turnouts I replaced were the Atlas Custom and the frog is insulated so when the points were set to divert there was no crossing of the polarities and the trains just passed through. So your suggestion and also the article you attached should guide me in this endeavor! If I do replace any other turnouts I will do all the preparations before installation to make it a little easier next time!
Thank you again so much for your help and as soon as I make the modifications and test it I will let you know how it went!
Hello Ed! Just wanted to let you know your suggestion worked great! First, I had to get cut wheels and a mandrel after returning from Fredericksburg and Grandson duty! I did have to add an addtional drop connection just down stream from the cuts as I was not getting full power on a small portion of track. This was one of the Peco crossovers that are just prior to the Shinohara crossover which is the southern portion of the double track wye entering the main yard. There is another Peco crossover and double switches just north of the Shinohara cross over but it did not seem to be affected like the southern half. Either way it is working great and I am back to the Atlas to Tortoise switch machine conversion. I am adding panel lights with the micromini DPDT switches and using the Tortoise internal switches for controlling the approach and segment signals. I guess I am a glutton for punishment but the results are truly impressive! Once I get that done I will continue with the scenery work now that the track is working. I still have a finicky 2-8-4 that just does not like the Atlas custom switches evern after dressing the points and frogs so I wish I had gone with either Peco or Shinohara as the quality is very superior to Atlas.
Thanks again and I hope you and yours have a Happy Thanksgiving and blessed Christmas, and if you celebrate Hanukkah I hope that it is blessed too!