Thanks spbed…should have done that.
I guess it is time to enter the wonderful world of rates and tariffs again.
ed
Good luck in my very early days I used to file our rates with the FMC & attend rate meetings. I sought of enjoyed it. The best was dealing with the shippers who wonder why used newspapers pays $0.01 & photo equipment cost $100.00 a ton as a example. The battle of wits with shippers was very enjoyable to say the least. [:D][:o)][:p]
[quote]
Originally posted by MP173
[
spbed:
I was a “rate man” myself…in LTL trucking. Before it was computerized, it was quite a world. Everyday there would be new tariffs and supplements from the bureaus. All to be filed away.
We had the classification guide with 15 factors to determine the “class” of freight. It was pretty interesting.
Today, I am in a different world, it is “what the market will bear.” I like this a lot better than the old regulated days.
ed
MP173-I remember the joys of rating a mixed shipment only to discover the operating authority was not there on one of the commodities.
Well my world today is clicking on A/trade to see what is going on with my investments. However, as I said I do miss the battle of wits with the shippers.
In the steamship world whatever the shipper described his shipment as was how it was rated. For guidance they were also required to furnish us with a US Customs form call a “shippers export declaration” which had a schedule “B” number. By checking that number in the schedule “B” book you would know if the shipper descripition was correct as the presumption was the shipper would not lie to the US Customs.
For me it was easier as I had the authority to fix a rate without have to go to a bureau for approval as the FMC rules were so long as the rate agreed upon was lower then the filed rate. So we would file a really super hi rate & then be able to barter with the shipper for a rate that they would accept that would be lower then the filed rate. Thats what made it such fun was that the shipper wanted to pay 1/2 a widget we wanted him to pay 10 widgets. [:o)][:D][:p]
[quote]
Originally posted by MP173
(1) FRA is hard stretched to inspect trackage on the common carriers, much less trackage owned by individual industries. They will come if called on a case by case basis and talk to an individual track owner (who usually feigns ignorance.)
(1a) Railroads are bound to inspect only the track that they own, not neccessarilly operate over. It’s up to the operating supervision to bring in a track department person to inspect out of bounds if they see something wrong. Track guys will look beyond the line where they can to spot trouble, but they cannot go out of their way. (If the forum could only see the finger pointing that goes on after a track caused derailment on industry owned track. The industry rarely wants to pay for anything, cannot justify regular maintenance and inspection costs, thinks track lasts forever and is outraged when the railroad sends it a track repair bill after a derailment or when the track deteriorates to the point the train cannot get over it and they need cars)
(2) The State PUC or Railroad Commission will come out and inspect and order a track removed from service if it violates a state statute (usually road crossing or clearance issue)…there is no longer a qualified individual in Colorado to do this since the last PUC Railroad Engineer retired (he was VERY good and is now sorely missed)[V] … again the industry feigns ignorance even though you beat them over the head with the facts
I just spent a wonderful hour in the world of railroad tariffs. NS does not have published tariffs for scrap available to the general public. You must register in order to get access. In order to register, you must have an NS employee (probably sales person) sponser you.
However, there were some public rates out there…
But, it was interesting looking at lumber, grain, and fertilizer rates!!!
A 500 mile haul of food oil yiels about $1985 in a shipper supplied car.
A 500 mile haul of grain in a greater than 5000 cf cover hopper is $2033.
Joint line lumber rates for NS and CSX are in effect. The 500 mile rate is $2585 to be split between the two carriers for a big flatcar.
Proportionate rates coming from another carrier at either Chicago or Streator yield $2277 for a big flat car for 500 miles. All of that revenue goes to NS.
It appears that a hefty fuel surcharge is in affect. Their tariff states .4% of line haul for every $1 above $23.00 for west Texas crude. That is about 13% today.
Bob, perhaps you can help with other accessorial charges. Typically, what other charges can a shipper expect.? Is there a charge for switching into an industry? Or is that part of the rate? Lets say NS hands off to a short line for final delivery…does NS split their rate with the short line or does that carrier also bill the customer?
What about return of empty private cars? If a customer ships food oil in a private tank car…ADM, Bunge, AGP, Cargill, etc…what is the charge to return the mt tank car? Is there a mileage allowance.
Back in the day, I worked for a small LTL carrier and we interlined with the major carriers. We would split revenue based on an old book of railroad rates. It had been published sometime in the 20’s and there were “factors” for interline points such as Chicago, Indianaplis, etc. I wish I would have kept a copy.
ed
In general, based on loose car movements.
The most common added charges are for weighing and demurage. One switch in and out of an industry is included in the rate. However, you will see caps on this because some carriers have tried to limit access with very high switching charges. Shortlines either have a contract with the connecting Class I for a fixed fee per car or they take a percentage of the through rate. The fixed fee approach is the most common with the shortline not appearing in the route on the bill of lading.
Shipper owned cars are returned empty to the loading point without charge. However, if you shipped a load from TX to PA and went to send the empty out to WA there will probably be a charge in cents per mile for the extra distance.
Prior to Staggers the railroads paid a feee in cents per mile to use shipper cars. It was a rate the ICC perscribed. However, in an effort to save the accounting expense, only about 10% of the traffic still moves on this basis. The rest move on so called zero mileage payout rates where the equipment cost is backed out of the rate.
Movement of empty cars is a “necessary evil” in railroad profit means. The good thing is that 3 locomotives can haul 180 cars no problem as long as the grade isn’t to steep.
The interesting thing is that unit trains don’t usually need to change cars often so it saves money on buying more railcars to replenish industries with shipping means. That is likely why railroads prefer unit trains. I know CN at one point was in preference to running unit trains. I suspect that the “Tank Train” cars of GATX was built for that kind of purpose.
As far as scrap metal trains, I believe CSX runs a few K500 series as required. Not sure what kind of customer has that much scrap metal for a steel mill.
Perhaps a yard that dismantles old ships. Or from pier to mill.
Taiwan used to be the heart of the ship breakers industry now it is India. Cost to much to do it here. [:o)][:p][:)]
[quote]
Originally posted by corwinda
[quote]
Originally posted by Junctionfan
There are laws in most States regarding safe working conditions, so my idea about contacting the Police for an obviousl safety violation is not far fetched . And it is not only railroaders that should do this but truckers also, for the benefit of both and for the benefit for those actually working in these places.
If a employee here feels his work place is dangerous who he has to do is place a call to OSHA. From then on the Feds will handle it. [:o)][:)][:D]
[quote]
Originally posted by daveklepper
[
Some observations:
-
I’m not trying to be facitious here, but it sounds like some of these scrap yards with the poor trackage are themselves engaged in deferred maintenance. It could be the same problem of low margins and inability to sufficiently recover their cost of capital as the railroads experience(d).
-
If and when China finally de-pegs it’s currency and allows it to float freely, you will see a shift in the movement of scrap metal from gons going stateside to otherwise empty containers heading back to Asia. China will soon be the number one market for scrap metal, if it isn’t already, and it is only the currency situation that is preventing more U.S. scrap metal from heading that direction. Assuming that the dollar will be devalued relative to China’s currency if it is de-pegged, that will be a boon for scrap dealers. Of course, you will then have the problem of an overweighed container of scrap having a rod or something bust through the bottom of a container in a well car and causing a derailment. Anyway, it means the truckers will have to deal with the inherent danger of scrap yards instead of railroaders, as the container loaded with scrap metal will need to be drayed to the nearest rail terminal.
I believe todays piggy packers or overhead cranes have scales in them so if the operater is observant there should be no overweight containers. [:p][:o)][:D]
[quote]
Originally posted by futuremodal
Why not use containers with tops that open and load the scrap directly into the container on the flat car at the scrapyard?
The only problem with that solution is the amount of damage the container would suffer during loading (take a close look at gons used in scrap service). The flimsiness of a container would never hold up to the abuse. For the container to be strong enough, the walls and floor would have to be very thick, greatly increasing the tare weight.
Possibly the cost reductions, assuming really intelligent container design to minimize weight and maximize strength, would be so great as encourage the scrapyard owners to be careful in loading, not banging against sides, etc.
Also, why is it easier to load a container with scrap metal if it is on a truck chassis rather than on the flatcar? Finally, would not the cost savings of an all-rail container movement to the port be so great that the container could simply make a one-way trip to China as part of the scrap metal?
Dave,
Ideally, you are correct on both accounts. But from what I’ve seen at our scrap yard (and at others), I would not hold out too much hope of the loading being done in such a way that the car is not damaged. Even the huge 40 sq. yd. containers we use to pick up scrap from industries get a terrible beating. The containers last about two years before they need to be refurbished, and maybe another year or so after that before the structure has been compromised so much that it is non-repairable. And at about $4K each, that gets expensive.