Why did some roads run their GP7/9 long hood forward while others ran short hood forward? I have the EMD Operating Manual and it has a picture of the loco with the “F” on the short hood. Which roads ran which way? If they ran long hood forward, did they have to move the engineer’s controls to the other side of the cab?
Thanks, Hansel
This topic should help answer your question since the same applies for any type of locomotive.
Why are some cars red and some blue? Personal preference. If you were an engineer used to a long steam engine boiler out in front of your vantage point what would seem the logical way to run a diesel? Once you ran one and you saw the greater visibility afforded from the short hood end which way would you want to run? Eventually somebody said, “why do we even need that hood blocking the sight lines now that the steam boiler has been removed?” and the low nose was born.
Railroad preference, Some wanted more grade crossing protection, others wanted better visibility.
An engine that runs long hood first will have the F on the long hood end.
The NW and SOU were famous long hood first roads. Other roads ran short hood first, some had a little of each. On the RDG GP7’s, RS3’s and AS16’s ran long hood front, but H24-66’ ran short hood first.
Yes, but they didn’t have to “move” them, they came that way from the manufacturer. Some even had control on both sides of the cab so it could operate in either direction with the engineer on the “right” side of the cab.
New York Central and Great Northern are two more RRs who ran their early GPs (and in GN’s case, SDs) long-hood forward. It actually wasn’t that uncommon in the early days of diesels for a RR to run long-hood forward, but after low-nose engines came along about fifty years ago, all but a very few (Southern and NW, as noted above) switched to using the low/short hood first.
Plus, not all railroads were consistent, i.e. many railroads that ran their GPs short-hood first at the same time ran their Alco RS-1/2/3 engines long-hood forward.
Well then there is also just the opposite. I think I read that the Northern Pacific had a rule to run all their diesels short-hood forward on the road including early diesels like Alco RS3s. I bet many engineers coming out of the steam era preferred long-hood foward just out of habit and for safety.
I’m looking at the October picture of my NYC calendar and it has an RS-3 on the front of a four car passenger train pulling out of Brewster on the Harlem Division. It has the long hood forward and the picture is dated 6/27/67 so it appears that they continued to run some units long hood forward even after the advent of the low hoods.
As mentioned Great Northern ran all their hood units long hood front as did Spokane Portland & Seattle Ry. until the GP30 & U25B units on the GN arrived and the C424’s on the SP&S. The engineer station was positioned so he would be on the right side of the cab with the long hood front.
GN rebuilt a few GP7’s with a low short hood during the late 1960’s and the engineer station had to be moved to the other side of the cab
Since I addressed this issue a month ago on Brakie’s link I found a reference–in a recent Diesel Era I believe–indicating that C&O had their RS-3s built to run long-hood forward but later in life had converted at least some of them for short-hood operation obviously because of their improved visibility.
Some railroads had some of their early GPs equipped with dual controls so the engineer could run the locomotive from the “correct” side of the cab with controls/seat properly oriented ragardless of direction by having them on both sides of the cab. This made operation convenient where train turn-around times were short or turning facilities were absent. Still, the locomotives had an official front end, marked with an "f’’ at one end of the loco’s frame. The SP originally used these locomotives on some of its local passenger trains.
SP’s earliest roadswitchers (Baldwins and Alcos) were oriented long-hood forward. Its GP units were delivered with the short hood being at the forward end.
Mark
On the SP, the front end of road switchers was readily distinguishable from a distance because that was the end the stripes of the Black Widow paint scheme were applied. Dual-controlled locos had those stripes at both ends.
Mark
To clarify my earlier comment, what I meant to say was that generally railroads that ordered say GP’s to run long hood forward stopped ordering new engines long-hood forward when the lo-nose engines came along. After about 1963 they usually bought new engines with low short hoods that were the front of the engine.
However unless they chopped the nose of their older engines, they normally continued to run them long-hood forward. So NYC’s GP-9’s ran long hood forward at least up to the PC merger in 1968, whereas later engines like their GP-35’s were ordered short/low hood forward. Same for the GN’s high-nose GP’s and SD’s.
With the RS-3’s cab design, the visibility forward was better looking down the long hood than it was on a GP, so there wasn’t as much reason to change. BTW as someone mentioned, Northern Pacific did run their RS-3’s short-hood forward from the git-go. I’m still waiting for Atlas to come out with an NP RS-3 again s
If NYC changed their minds they would have to rebuild the controls. NYC bought the RS3’s set up for long hood forward, so the engineer controls would have been on the right side looking forward (long hood pointing away from operator). If they swapped over with out changing the controls the operator would be on the left side of the engine looking at the rear of the train when trying to operate.
I personnaly go with the statement “thats how they wanted it”. In my opinion some engines looked good only one way, in the case of RS-1’s, 2’s, and 3’s long hood forward. In the case EMD short hood forward. But there are exceptions, of course. Anything with a short hood looks wrong going short hood forward, but if it’s in a MU consist it doesn’t. What can I say, I’m weird.
One other thing not mentioned that N&W and SOU were famous for were tall short hoods. The only tall short engines were produced for N&W, SOU, and some Mexican railroads (GP38 IIRC) who wanted the taller short hood so there was room for a steam generator so the lokes could be used in passenger service.
Also as a side note if you look in either the GP7 or GP9 manual it states that EMD considered the short hood forward as standard. The RS manual (2 or 3) states the opposite, for those engines ALCo considered the long hood as forward standard. If a RR wanted the opposite of the manufactorers standard they just had to be “special ordered”. On the other hand I know the Geep’s could also be special ordered with dual controls so it could be run either long hood forward OR short hood forward, although it should be mentioned per AAR rules
The N&W and SOU wanted the tall short hood for crash protection, the LIRR and Mexicans may have wanted it for a steam generator.
Technical point, it is Federal law, not the AAR rule that requires the “F” on the front of a locomotive. The AAR can issue rules, the Feds issue laws
Here is a GE center-cab loco. The “F” denoting the front-end is partially obscured by the handrail. Photo was taken at the California Railroad Museum at “Old Town” Sacramento…
Sacramento Southern No. 1240 GE 1953 44-ton
Ex- U.S. Air Force No. 1240. Purchased 12/1993 from McClellan AFB, Sacramento. Operable.
Mark
Note that the Norfolk & Western and the Southern continued to buy hi-nose diesels after they had quit running passenger trains, so clearly the issue wasn’t related to that. I’m not sure it was a safety issue per se, the reason they ran long-hood forward was because the long hood provided more crash protection.
Oddly enough IIRC one or both of those railroads bought some lo-nose diesels in the eighties but still ran them long-hood forward, saying that the low nose provided more ability to look back over the train and such.
I’m surprised cab units haven’t been brought up in this thread. The N&W went from steam directly to hood unit diesels, so it makes sense that they would naturally continue with the long hood forward concept in which they were accustomed. As for the Southern and other railroads, I am not sure. I always thought that Southern ran their diesels short hood forward even though they had high hoods. I suppose that’s something I need to look up.
The thing that doesn’t make sense is why railroads like the PRR ran their high hood units long hood forward since they had cab units running in freight services at the same time. It just seems to be an inconsistent practice…first steam was long hood forward, then cab units short hood forward, then early hood units run long hood forward, and finally second generation diesels short hood forward. I guess they wanted to keep things interesting.
As far as brand new purchases from EMD or GE. SOUTHERN RAILWAY never ordered any low short hood units. After SOU and NW merged in 1982 into the “current” Norfolk Southern", low nose units were all that were ordered (and later wide cab units). Some of these were sublettered for “SOU”, and some did indeed have the “F” on the long hood end, designating long hood forward.
SOUTHERN is the only railroad that I know of that actually did the opposite of other railroads. Many other roads took older high short hoods and chopped them down for visibility purposes. But when SOUTHERN acquired the “original” Norfolk Southern (which was renamed the Carolina & North Western after SOU and NW merged into the current NS), that old NS had a fleet of short hood units, many were GP38’s. They were sent to the shop and had the hoods built up into high hoods, and then painted for SOUTHERN. Also most, if not all of these GP38’s were without dynamic brakes too…so they were the “oddballs” of the SOUTHERN fleet. The old NS had other locos too, but without getting books out to look it up I forget what they were.
It is often said and written that SOUTHERN operated long hood forward, which indeed is the case in many instances…but I’ve seen plenty of photos and videos that prove they ran plenty of trains short hood forward. Certain SOUTHERN locos were also designated as short hood forward. Some of the GP35’s, SD35’s, and a few others had the “F” on the short hood end. Quite honestly I believe SOUTHERN simply ran the locos however they happened to be turned.
Speaking as an engineer for NS these days, I can say that we still do run engines long hood forward at times. Sometimes it’s because you only have one engine and you can’t find anywhere to turn the engine when you make your return trip. Trust me, the crews prefer to have short hood forward these days. And especially if it happens to be a des
N&W GP7/9s revisited.
A closer study of N&W GP7/9s pictures will reveal just as many operated short hood foward as they did long hood forward even though the “F” was on the long hoood and had bells mounted on the short hood.
Bladeslinger, The other original NS locomotives that Southern converted to High short hoods were GP18’s, also without dynamic brakes. There were also some Baldwin locomotives and GE 70-tonners in the fleet, but these were soon scrapped or sold.
AFAIK, Norfolk and Western continued ordering locomotives with high short hoods because that was “standard” from the manufacturer, the low noses were an option at extra cost. When the high noses became the option, N&W ordered locomotives with the low noses but still designated the long hood as front.
John