Is there a website (FRA or other) that would have a map of sorts helping one to identify the location of a signal by using its number plate? In other words, you have a signal and the plate reads 1234, where was it in service? And possibly info as to how the railroads identified the signals using number plates.
thanks in advance and Happy New Year
I’m afraid not. The FRA has no such map nor website nor does it systematically collect the signal line maps prepared by railroads, though in various FRA files you might find various signal line maps of specific rail lines at specific times used by the FRA to review accidents, safety questions, etc. The only map that shows signal locations (with any accuracy) are what are called “signal line maps,” or “straight lines” or “roll maps.” These are created by the signal engineering department of the railroad and show the main track as a straight line, with side tracks rendered schematically, and signals located (usually) by both milepost and engineering station. Sometimes a single map will cover 100 miles or more, and usually they are 12" wide and are unrolled to view, thus the term “roll map.” Signal line maps are general equipment layout drawings that show the general relationship of signals to the track and to each other, the braking curves, the aspects that are provided in each location, the locations of insulated joints, power switches, locations of regens, signaled grade crossings and type of grade crossing predictor in use at each crossing, grade crossing approach circuit extent and frequency and shunt, etc.
Track charts and track profiles (aka condensed profiles, or grade profiles) often show signal locations, but usually not with accuracy because the track chart is primarily used by the track construction and maintenance people, and the signal line map by the signal construction and maintenance people, and the two departments don’t necessarily need to know what each other is doing all the time, nor do they bother to update each other all the time.
Signal circuit diagrams also show the signal locations schematically, though unlike the roll map which might capture an entire subdivision on a single piece of paper 12" wide and 30 feet long, the circuit diagrams are voluminous. The circuit diagrams for a 100-mile subdivision without much track or signal complexity can oft
Thanks a million for the detailed reply! Armed with that info and the FRA mileage marker maps I’ll be farther ahead than I was.
Thanks again, JG
There is no “public” catalog of signals that I know of, unless a railfan outfit somewhere puts something like that out.
Usually “intermediate” signals are number plated, and those plates generally correspond to mileposts.
!(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff19/kpharrier/sunset ca-texas/DSC06887-M.jpg)
The above 8952-1 plated signal west of Maricopa, AZ on Union Pacific’s Sunset Route can be interpreted as in the milepost 895 area, with the “2” as which direction signal (odd or even) and the “1” as which of two tracks. Each railroad has its own number plating system.
It is hoped the above helps in some way, and broadens (if that is possible) your understanding beyond Railway Man’s excellent post.
By defination in most, if not all, carrier rule books, intermediate signals have number plates…Absolute signals DO NOT. If the Absolute Signal is at STOP, the train needs the verbal permission of the person that controls the signal to pass it in accordance with the rules.
From what I’ve seen, at work and elsewhere, signals ending with odd numbers (not including track identifiers) usually govern (timetable) westward or southward trains. Even numbered signals governing eastward or northward trains.
To prove what RWYman said about mistakes happening, one set of signals on the territory I work is backwards. The even number plate faces westward trains, the odd number faces eastward trains.
Some places where there are signals on two tracks, both facing the same way, they use the same signal number with a track number, like in KP’s picture. Other places will have two different numbers. Using KP’s picture, instead of a signal #8952-l and #8952-2 for tracks 1 and 2, they might be numbered #8952 for track 1 and #8954 for track 2. Some signals installed by the CNW and not changed by the UP are still numbered that way.
Jeff
Thanks to all! More info than I could have ever hoped for.
So before I go to the FRA milepost maps, my next project is laying on the side of the house, a US&S R-2 (G/Y/R) with a 7541 on the plate. I was told it came from the UP, but wasn’t 100%. Anyone care to clue me in and/or confirm it’s last location. To me the cool part is it is mounted on a rather large GRS box (approx 28 x 34 x 44).
Thanks again!
As I always start out on explanations, each railroad was different but there are many similarities. Signals were usually numbered by milepost with even being eastbound or soutbound while and odd numbers west or northbound. Usually. Some had decimals, some didn’t, some indicated the decemil without the point. Some railroads did it all from a single point “A”, while others did it by division or branch or other segmentation. #1234 would usually be 124.4 miles from point “A” but might also be 1234 miles from point "A’. Usually ascednding away from point “A’” and decending toward point “A”. Most roads had track chargs and diagrams but would most likely be much more rare than rule books and timetables. Today, with Homeland Security, it is very, very difficult to find such material without causing quite a stir.
To help focus your search: UP, SP, and Santa Fe were “US&S roads” back when most of the ABS and first-generation CTC was installed, and most of their signaling was purchased from US&S. D&RGW and WP were GRS roads. UP, however, though it typically used US&S equipment for wayside signaling, overwhelmingly preferred GRS equipment for interlockings, and the LA&SL installed both Federal Railway Signal and GRS wayside signaling before it came firmly under UP control. LA&SL mileposts counted upward from 0.0 at Los Angeles toward Salt Lake City. SP 0.0 is San Francisco.
There has been quite a bit of remileposting in the last 20 years in the course of new CTC installations, particularly in urban areas. I would start with sources such as the Altamont Press timetables, or old employee timetables. FRA maps are not something I would rely upon. Old track charts are not too hard to find on line for purchase (but can be preposterously expensive). Signal line maps don’t seem to have been attractive to railroadiana collectors, and are rarely seen outside of the signal engineering department.
RWM
Thanks for putting up that link. Very cool!
Just to throw a little diversion into the mix, sometimes an interlocking plant would use its own local numbers, and these would be one or two digits. A passenger terminal would still be a place to find this situation. Obviously not applicable to the signal that started this discussion thread!
For the mileage based numbers, another variation might be 1152B or 1152D. This would be for a signal entering the main line from unsignaled territory at approximately mile 115.2 of that subdivision. The D suffix would indicate a dwarf signal. As others mentioned, the general practice is to use even numbers in one direction and odd numbers in the other, to the nearest tenth of a mile.
John
Perhaps against my better judgment, but I’m nevertheless going to take a wild guess that it was at or near UP Milepost 754 (Doh!), which in your territory would be about 20 miles easterly of Yuma, and about 6 miles northeast of Fortuna Foothills and I-8, and about 2 miles east of US RT. 95.
The FRA GIS website - thanks for that link, too ! - appears to show a short siding from about MP 753.8 to the west to CP DOME at about MP 753.4, and MP 754 as being at LAT 32.74762, LONG -114.354034.
Another source - MikeF90’s* “Google Maps” webpage for the “Sunset Route - Gila Sub” at - http://tinyurl.com/sr-gilasub or
shows that MP 754 appears to be about 1/2 mile before/’ east of the end of 2 Main Tracks at CP DOME which is labeled as being at MP 753.5.
*As found on occasional posts to another thread here on the “Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates” started a long time ago and mostly posted to by K.P. Harrier (above), such as at -
Wow, that’s a lot of info, and work, thanks. I acquired it, and several others (different), about a month ago from another collector who made friends with the UP signal maintainer. He picked up all over, and by the truckload, so your location fits perfectly. Thanks and I’ll post pics when completed, along with the others.
Pic of the latest truckload of “stuff.” Lots of work ahead of me.
All I see when I click on that link is a menu with selectable items on the left and a blue “map” that has no features visible on the right side. I can select and de-select anything on the left and nothing changes.
There is no signal 7541 in this territory, not in the last 10 years or so. Also, it is former SP territory with searchlight signaling for both control points and intermediates, except for the new signaling that has been installed in the last few years in the Blaisdell-Fortuna-Yuma area.
LA&SL mileposts in theory are possible. MP 754 would be 19 miles west of Lake Point, Utah, on the eastward approach to Erda. And this territory in the past typically used the multiple-head color-light signal for intermediates, and searchlights for control points, but I don’t think there was ever a signal 7541 in this territory either.
RWM
Margaritaman (1-1):
In addition to Railway Man’s post (1-2) just above, your photo of a “7541” plated mast AMONGST multi-bulb heads make me wonder if the mast in question even came from Arizona. Southern Pacific was a hardcore target head user sixty years ago, and I see no evidence in the photo of any target heads.
!(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff19/kpharrier/sunset ca-texas/DSC04155-M.jpg)
The above August 5, 2008 photo was taken west of Red Rock, AZ and shows the typical intermediate target signals that have lined the Sunset Route for decades. The left facing signal is numbered 9460.
The photo, by the way, shows the wire cabling to the pole typical of past eras. The photo, also, was originally posted in the “Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates” thread at this forum.
Take care,
K.P.
Thanks again for all of the fun info. I wouldn’t let my pic of “the haul” influence anyone’s decision as to where the signal orignated from. There are a couple of GRS SA’s up towards the front of the truck and your pic shows what apperas to be US&S H-2s, but the signals at his facility were from anywhere in the CA, NV, UT and AZ areas. I just happened to get the ones I did to fill in blanks in the collection.
I really enjoy the wealth of info that everyone has offered up.
Anyone have some GRS SCs looking for a home? 
Use the “zoom in” tool. Most of the layers on the map have too much detail to show on the default view.
I have seen along the CN in Canada signals that look to be absolute signals that have number plates. Indeed, as I watched from the Canadian, I do not remember seeing any signals without number plates. This intrigued me (and helped locate where we were at the time).
You’re quite welcome to what I was able to contribute to this, even if it was only to elicit a response that my guess is probably wrong ! So now you know why I started out by saying “It’s against my better judgment . . .”. But seriously, since RWM said it, you can pretty much ‘take that to the bank’ on this kind of subject. And I was going to mention that it seemed there was a local road in that vicinity parallel to the tracks, so you could maybe take a drive out there and see if either a replacement signal with the same number is there, or at least the old concrete base . . .
Which still leaves us with the question of: “Where did it come from, then ?”, and the 2 most likely prospects - in my opinion [:-^] - now ruled out. Where else would a line be long enough to have MP’s in the 754 range ? Well, the analysis and critiques and information above ought to give you a pretty good handle on the process to keep working on figuring it out . . . .
I really like the photo of that signal in your garden/ backyard ! (Maybe someday, I’ll be able to persuade the Gardener-in-Chief/ Master-of-the-Yard that something like that would look good - or at least acceptable - at our homestead, other than in the basement.) For the benefit of the ‘great unwashed’ here - like me - who might be ignorant of such things: What are the details on it - type/ model, etc. ? Where did it come from ? What was it used for ? Do you have it powered so that the several heads can light up, such as at night ? If so, bet that looks pretty neat ! Thanks for sharing !