So you think brass is dead????

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
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In the last seven days there were two brass train auctions…Stout and Toytrains and other things. I was able to attend on line for most of them, and what a pleasant shock!!! No I did no get any bargains as there were none…but more important were the prices being fetched. Brass activitiy (sales and interest) supposedly peaked in 1997. Some experts say they can trace the begiining of the decline to March of that year…but this week brass traversed time back to 1997 and then some. Probably over 60% sold at more that double what I would have priced them at. Early Alco diesels which I used as door stops or offered a full refund if the thing actually ran well sold well into the $150 + class. A ubiquitous PFM PRR standard K4 sold for $400. I never priced one over $200 and usually sold them for much less. The Stout auction at least had some great models, The Toytrains and other things auction line up was mostly junk or quite common 60-70’s models which when I was an active dealer in used brass…would have not handled. But not so today!!! I could go on and on about the ridiculous prices…and to boot, 90% were unpainted with fair boxes. Granted the $400 K4 was mint, but rarity???

Oh well!!! Maybe I’ll again get back into big time brass sales!

HZ

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I had a bad experience with the Stoudt auction.

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I registered as an online bidder, and placed some pretty respectable pre-bids on several items.

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Then, four days ago, for unexplained reasons, they cancelled all of my pre-bids and withdrew my authorization as an absentee online bidder.

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Oh well, it sounds like I would not have won any of the auctions anyhow.

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I know what you mean about brass prices creeping up. The “Standard” locomotive for the next STRATTON & GILLETTE is the Sunset Heavy USRA 2-8-2. I bought two of these for less than $200.00 each. Now they are going for the north side of $300.00 most of the time. I would like two more, but I don’t need them.

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-Kevin

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From what I have observed, only later high-end brass like Overland seems to keep it’s value.

Older brass from the 70’s seams to not to hold value…

Jim

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Depends, I guess, on the loco and what you intend to do with it. For someoine who wants to run the loco, the PCM Reading T1 is a much better detailed model than the old NJ International/Daiyung brass models. Why anyone would pay more for the brass one eludes me. The Ovrland brass ones though - those are much more detailed than the PCM plastic ones. I suspect that most of the more recent (10-15 years) of highly detailed and road specific plastiuc steam locos are better detailed and better runners out fo the box than most any of the 50’s and 60’s brass. I’m also guessing only collectors who will just store them away and hold on to them hoping to sell for an even higher price are willing to pay crazy prices. I’ll take a brass piece at a reasonable price - but it’s going to get run on my layout, not kept mint in the box. Like my Alco Models RS3, which was about $100 and it came already remotored with a Sagami can motor and had a DCC decoder in it. ANd extra details added. No way would I pay $3-400 for one. I can get multiple Atlas or Athearn ones plus the detail parts for that kind of money.

I wouldn;t say brass is dead, but the demand is much lower. Back in the heyday of brass, the available plastic locos were for the most part generic, decorated for a dozen or more roads and accurate for none. You wanted an accurate loco, you bought brass. Now we have plastic locos with road (and even road NUMBER) specific details. But by no means has every railroad been covered, so there still are plenty of cases where if you want a specific loco, brass is the only way to obtain it.

–Randy

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Auctions are a unique being, I have been playing on e-bay for years and live can be even more interesting. If you have the right crowd the sky is the limit.

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Howard, I’m in the same camp as Randy.

The price, or popularity of brass has no effect on my model train hobby.

First, I’m not a “collector”, I only buy models that fit the theme of my layout, a theme hat has not changed in over 25 years. And I only buy models to run them, not as investments.

In 50 years in this hobby, I have never owned a model of a Big Boy, K4, (complete your own long list of famous locos), etc, etc.

I model the C&O, B&O, WESTERN MARYLAND and my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL.

I only buy locos that fit those railroads and that fit the operational scheme of my layout…and obviously the fictional construct of the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, who’s motive power choices are similar to the B&O and C&O.

I only own two brass locos, nothing rare or fancy, just a couple of PFM USRA light Pacifics, that now sport Bachmann long haul oil tenders and are lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL.

My point? It all depends on your interests, goals and disposable income.

I live pretty well, in a 4000 sq ft, fully restored, 1901 Queen Anne house with no mortgage…and I have a lot of trains, but I’m not in your league, and model train locomotives with four fiqure price tags are not on my radar, for a number of reasons. For that matter, model train locomotives with prices over the $400/$500 range are not on my radar, brass, plastic or otherwise.

Lucky for me I have most of the locomotives I need and want, only about 130 of them, with a dollar cost average for the whole fleet of about $120 each.

DISCLAIMER - no DCC or sound here…

So is brass dead? or not? Based on what I see going on in this hobby today, not very many people care one way or the other. I surely don’t. There are a few pieces I might like to pick up at some point, a WM Pacific, a few B&O 10 wheelers, but beyond that, I could not even tell you what is out there.

Are brass locos “art”? maybe? But I don’

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Sheldon,

Thanks for kind words about layout. One does not need to be wealthy to purhase brass…just knowledge of the market and desire to own and play with a really nice toy. Example: I retired 31 years ago age at age 49 by selling my business as it grew to be a monster that was bent on devouring me. But at 49…what now? Fishing? Golf? Condo in Florida? Travel??? I don’t think so. Fish stink! I hate golf! Florida…nah, I was just too young then and the average age there is deceased. Travel… too many foriegners! But model trains as a business/hobby!!! I already was involved with the Timonium show and I loved building structures and brass models. During this time I owned only about five brass models, but I was a fan and possed a decent knowledge on brass.

I began the Piermont Division by selling and trading my five models and purchsed a few more at a decent price and by using the show, was able to sell these for a profit and kept tradng upwards until I amassed a fairly substantial inventory. Within a few years I was able to purchase collections…not from my own funds which were still in the marginal retirement class, but from lines of bank credit. During this period (late 80’s) by knowing what I bought and knowing the market,I was able just about everytime I used bank credit, to to pay the entire amount back prior to making first payment. I’m not sure this could be done today, but after watching aforementioned auctions, I may have to rethink this.

My theory on investiing proved to be real…three things are needed to be successful: Knowledge of what you are investing in, belief in same and control. The stock market offered none of this for me, but brass trains and model railroading in general…you bet!

Point…? Sure, all of these Broadway Limiited, MTH, Athearn, etc plastic and cast models are wonderful, but prices now are comparable to used brass counterparts. Only if you elect to purhchase the brass model and want to trade or sell

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Howard, didn’t know you retired early too. I retired for the second time at 52 (first time was 29 but kids and wife killed that). I have a few brass peices, mostly shays, of which only the Katsumi 2-cylinder runs flawless and was my only major brass purchace (still can’t find that in anything but brass. I still love that engine.

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Brass, schmass.

Is it a model I want? Does it run well? Does it have good detail? Is it affordable?

Brass, plastic, zamac, or compressed aardvark turds, I couldn’t care less.

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Howard, I highly doubt if today’s modelers would be interested in a Alco Models,Hallmark or Trains Inc diesel locomotives with their noisy drives.

None of those noise makers are worth the jacked up prices you see on e-Bay.

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What once was a mixed market, model railroaders and collectors, has become a collectors market. Except perhaps steam as you still need brass for correct locomotive of railroad at a given time.

While Overland was still active where did you get the latest diesel locomotives? Only from OMI, plastic was far behind at that time.

Today’s brass is mostly in the past, or they offer the NS Heritage locomotives (UTI) that were already available in high quality plastic. And than you have the prices. The new DP Balwin Center Cabs will be around $1,500. All more addressed to collectors.

I have quite a number of brass steam and diesel locomotives but have never seen them as investment. Inflation-adjusted the best has just kept its value. With the advent of the highly detailed plastic diesels even OMI models from the late 1990s lost value.

Being more of a collector’s market now explains the high prices at live auctions, which additionally have their own laws.
Regards, Volker

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Howard said he wouldn’t be returning to sell at Timonium. Yesterday it did seem there were more than a just a couple dealers with some brass engines. Hardly a scientific survey, maybe I was overwelmed by Howard’s stock of brass and didn’t notice the other dealers in previous shows. There was even one engine that was advertised as painted and weathered by Howard. It was an excellent job so I don’t doubt that was true.

Like Sheldon, the capital budget per engine has limits, so despite watching all the episodes of Brasstrains.com, I have no ability to recognize a bargin priced brass loco vs an overpriced one. If I were going to buy one, I would stick to a reputable dealer and know while I’m not getting a outrageous bargin, I’m not being the sucker either.

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I have five brass engines. I bought two Alcos made by Alco, an S-1 and an S-4, on a whim last fall. They were cheap in all senses of the word. The detail is crappy! The hood louvers are so faint I’m afraid they will disappear under a coat of paint. Whether or not they get upgraded only time will tell. I was given a United 0-6-0 by a very generous fellow modeller a little while ago. It sits front and center on my workbench waiting for some attention. The other two are two axle diesel switchers (critters) that I built from scratch. One is finished. The other languishes, awaiting the cab roof to be installed and to be painted.

I doubt that they qualify me as a brass collector but I like them all. [swg][(-D][(-D]

Dave

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I have 2 brass pieces - an Sn2 Forney and an Sn2 parlor coach.

I bought the Forney pre-production at 20% off. It now sells for 20% less than that new.

The coach sells for about 30% less than what I paid.

Both are available new from a dealer who apparently bought up Train and Trooper’s stock when they went out of business.

I’m still happy with them and glad I bought them when I did, otherwise I might never have gotten them - can’t count on resales for small markets. But I didn’t buy these as an investment, they were the only ones available in Sn2 brass or otherwise.

While I can’t often afford brass, for a model I’d like to have that is otherwise unavailable I would be interested.

Paul

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[quote user=“Howard Zane”]

Sheldon,

Thanks for kind words about layout. One does not need to be wealthy to purhase brass…just knowledge of the market and desire to own and play with a really nice toy. Example: I retired 31 years ago age at age 49 by selling my business as it grew to be a monster that was bent on devouring me. But at 49…what now? Fishing? Golf? Condo in Florida? Travel??? I don’t think so. Fish stink! I hate golf! Florida…nah, I was just too young then and the average age there is deceased. Travel… too many foriegners! But model trains as a business/hobby!!! I already was involved with the Timonium show and I loved building structures and brass models. During this time I owned only about five brass models, but I was a fan and possed a decent knowledge on brass.

I began the Piermont Division by selling and trading my five models and purchsed a few more at a decent price and by using the show, was able to sell these for a profit and kept tradng upwards until I amassed a fairly substantial inventory. Within a few years I was able to purchase collections…not from my own funds which were still in the marginal retirement class, but from lines of bank credit. During this period (late 80’s) by knowing what I bought and knowing the market,I was able just about everytime I used bank credit, to to pay the entire amount back prior to making first payment. I’m not sure this could be done today, but after watching aforementioned auctions, I may have to rethink this.

My theory on investiing proved to be real…three things are needed to be successful: Knowledge of what you are investing in, belief in same and control. The stock market offered none of this for me, but brass trains and model railroading in general…you bet!

Point…? Sure, all of these Broadway Limiited, MTH, Athearn, etc plastic and cast models are wonderful, but prices now are comparable to used brass counterparts. Only if you elect to purhcha

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Sheldon,

Reading your posts cements my beliefs that there is literallly somethng in this hobby for everyone’s tastes. Many believe that my groundhog is not fully baked, due to my interests and pursuits in our hobby…and that is fine and it is the way it should be. Some folks prefer to copy existing themes, operatons, and locales. I’m the anthesis of this as to me the hobby is about limitless (and then some) imagination as everything is mythical on my pike, but not only do I repect other’s pursuits, I condone them and mostly enjoy hearing about them.

I love the pursuit of certain items which of course mostly was and still is brass…so much so that I got tired of early waiting in line at shows knowing that the early bird gets the first worm…so I started my own show. The real truth about the Timonium show is that it never began as a for profit business…but only as a venue for me and friends to get the jump on finding hard to find models and of course bargains. Of course like everythng else in life that I began and ran…the tail wound up wagging the pooch.

Many who have visited my layout marvel not so much at the scenery, but at the electronics. Here is a fact…I had literally nothing to do with it except sign checks or trade items for services. Again all of the under bench work was done by folks who enjoy the wiring and electronics side of the hobby. This was not for me, as I’m an above the bench kind of a guy.

'Nough said…just enjoy the hobby and whatever your tastes are in the same.

HZ

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You know, that is the trouble with life, any pursuit can become a real job, including hobbies. Now Howard knows that to be successful in any ventrure requires risk, time and sacrifice.

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Agreed, it is a great and diverse hobby.

And again, I have great appreciation for your work. I worked under Logan on the Severnal Park layout 40 years ago.

As for electronics, I still run DC…very complex Advanced Cab Control DC, with wireless throttles, signals and CTC, and more. Mostly designed and built by me

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I bought my first brass locomotive mainly for two reasons: I didn’t mind the looks of it (not overly enamoured, though) and it was under a hundred bucks (by only a dollar).
I had just started painting for a nearby hobbyshop, so had some “found” money to spend. The loco belonged to the shop’s owner, an acquaintance of my father.
A model of a B&M B-15 Mogul, it had arched-top windows, which I almost immediately hid with sunshades bent from sheet brass. I also replaced the single phase air pump with a cross-compound type, and added number boards and a different headlight.
The loco, with an open-frame motor, ran extremely poorly, so I replaced it with a small can motor. While it fit in the boiler, it wouldn’t clear the narrow firebox, so I built a bracket in the boiler on which to mount the motor, then connected it to the gearbox with NWSL u-joints. It ran great, but was likely already devalued by the cosmetic modifications.

Here’s how it looked after my tinkering…

Eventually, I decided to further change its appearance, along with that of an IHC Mogul which I had added to the roster, to better match my Bachmann Consolidations, the main “big power” on my freelanced railroad. Here’s what it looks like now…

Is it still worth $99.00? I don’t care!

A friend gave me a brass CNR 0-6-0, claiming that it didn’t pull enough cars for his needs. He refused to sell it to me, so I re-worked a c

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I looked through the auctions end bids, and now i am angry-ish.

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The $400.00 United/PFM K4 was not average for the auction. Most items went for far lower amounts. A PENNSY United/PFM 2-10-0 went for $190.00, very low. Most other United/PFM models were in the $200.00 to $250.00 range. An Overland watch tower went for only $100.00, far less than they normally sell for on eBay.

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Here is the kicker… A Sunset USRA Heavy 4-8-2 sold for $170.00! My pre-bid for that locomotive, that was cancelled by the auction organizer, was $210.00! I should have won that locmotive, or the selling price should have been $220.00.

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I wonder how many other early bidders had their bids cancelled and their bidding priveledges revoked. It does not make any sense.

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-Kevin

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