SOAPBOX -- Track Dealers -- How the Price of Track Affects Our Hobby

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
41

Really, you need to take more care with your arguments. Milk prices aren’t “ramped” up; in fact most dairy producers operate at a loss; local small farmers can’t make a profit at the low prices needed to compete with the large cooperatives. In most cases bottled water costs more than milk.

It is severely naive to presume that the costs surrounding raising dairy cattle, or egg laying hens haven’t increased. To simply presume that the “self-sufficient” farmer is still a viable option in a modern economy is also ignoring reality. Take a look at the cost of a good used tractor, and try to budgeting that into your annual milk sales off of 50 head. not to mention health insurance, feed, property taxes, etc, etc. etc.

I think the suggestion for you to consider starting your own track company is a great one, I would strongly encourage your attempt, and would promote the product were it of sufficient quality at an appropriate price.

The argument about “sucking it up” is also a very valid one, as no where is it said that Model Railroaders deserve the most inexpensive hobby activity ever. You need

42

I don’t disagree with you (and the other respondants) who point out that space is a deciding factor, and in fact I pointed that out myself in my original post when I said layouts were built to-suit the space constraints and financial budgets. And I’m not suggesting Atlas reduce its sales at all-- there’s a number of ways to skin that cat. And you mentioned the best one right off…

The only thing stopping any reasonably-sized MR mfgr from mfgr’ing track is inclination.

In my original article I indicated that I understand the economic realities, particularly with respect to the supply aspect-- where else can you go to buy track? So the mfgr’s can sell it for whatever price they think they can get and until someone else comes along and starts seriously undercutting them, they’re in fat city. And even if someone does come along and compete with them, as long as the price is the same or higher, all they’re really doing is potentially splitting the market. As long as the market responds with more sales, nobody (track mfgrs) loses and things can continue. Its only when the market does not respond with more sales and sales FALL that there is an opportunity for relief-- when one mfgr or another “blinks” and lowers their prices. If the value of the product as perceived by the consumer seems the same, then the price typically drives the sale. Then the other mf

43

John,

I wasn’t accusing you of trying or not trying to economize your hobby dollars. My point was that ALL aspects of the hobby have gone up in price over the years and will continue to go up. (Some aspects more than others.)

It’s kinda like buying gas for your car: You find where you save 10 cents per gallon for the same quality of gas when filling it up. Eventually, the compound in savings allows you to purchase that needed tune-up for your car…which helps increase the overall MPG of your car…which, in turn, allows you to save even more gas and money. And I do understand, John, that you are and have been trying to find that allusive “gas station” that sells the quality of track you want.

I think we can speculate and wonder why track is as expensive as it is. I wouldn’t be surprised if prices on plastic aren’t somehow speculative (like they are in the oil business) because plastic is a petroleum-based product itself. However, it is what it is - whether we can determine the reasons for it or not.

Sometimes it just means holding out for the best price you can and buy when you have to. I do that all the time when searching for particular locomotives. Had I bought my Trix Mikes when they first came out, I wouldn’t have saved 60+% off the MSRP a couple of years ago. Now prices are back up between the price I paid and the original MSRP. I’m glad I jumped on it when I did. [:)]

Tom

44

In the time I’m making these posts I’m holding my sick kid who’s having a totally rotton day except for when we’ve been in the basement running some trains-- and now he’s nestled up beside me, having fallen asleep watching ‘chitty chitty bang bang’, and I don’t have the heart to wake him.

45

WOW, all this while I was out doing a little work today.

Having started in this hobby at age 12 in 1967, and having worked in a few hobby shops as early as 1969, I would say I have good knowledge of the cost of things in this hobby over the years.

Anyone remember TruScale Ready Track? Way more expensive, adjusted for inflation, than even the “premium” brands today. It was the Premium brand of its day. My first layout was all TruScale, some Ready Track, some I built from their kits.

Personally, I am building a fairly large layout and did consider the cost of track before I began. I use Atlas code 83, I buy it mail order by the whole box. I buy turnouts several dozen at a time the same way.

Atlas code 100 flex, from Standard Hobby, $269.99 per bx of 100 - code 83, $329.99 per box of 100.

Turnouts, every size/code/etc, less motors - less than $13.00 each.

Not bad in my book.

I don’t buy those premium brands, I always have thought they were over priced. Not enough better than an Atlas Custom Line to justify twice as much money from my pocket. After all the ballast, paint and weathering Atlas turnouts look fine to me - and they work fine too.

Then the magazines are full of articles on how to “fix” or “up grade” those over priced turnouts.

The only thing I do to my Atlas turnouts is file down the frogs to the rail height if needed.

I use to hand lay my track and turnouts, but it takes time and I want things to move a little faster this time around - and this layout is bigger than those I hand layed years ago.

I do build custom stuff if I need it, but that is only a few pieces on this layout.

And, I agree bulk rail seems to have gotten expensive. I remember buying Campbell ties and bulk rail for way less than any

46

Yes, I understand and agree. From the outset of this post I have been discussing my opinion and supposition of the situation. I agree that many things in the hobby seem expensive, but in thinking it through, and searching high and low for the elusive “gas station” you mention, I am having a hard time understanding the reason for the price-- other than its what the market will bear. None of the constituent elements seem all that expensive-- and compared to other areas of the hobby in which the costs are more comprehendable. It costs money to design and develop a new locomotive. Or a building structure. And the runs are typically limited so the cost must be borne across the whole set. With track on the other hand, you pay to make a foot of the stuff, or three feet if flex track, or whatever-- and then once you’ve done that and set up your molds and tools, you pump out the same old thing day in and day out over and over ad infinitum. And when the mold wears out you go back to the master, cut a new one, and keep on going. An incremental production cost yes, but not the same as redesigning the whole kit-and-kaboodle from the outset, which is what many of the other mfgr’d items (trains, buildings, accessories, etc) have

47

One more thought.

Atlas has retooled their line several times in the last 30 years including introducing code 83.

PECO has introduced their code 83 line of North American standard turnouts.

Walthers has had Sinahara retool their product with isolated frogs and points.

These are tooling costs that must be recooped - current product tooling is anything but paid for at this point.

Sheldon

48

But john, you specifically compared track manufacturers to business’ where there is a high margin disposable consumable item that is required to be purchased from the manufacturer of the main item. There is no disposable consumable item that is required to be purchased to continue to use model train track. The analogy simply does not hold up. This type of loss-leader business model only works if the manufacturer has a guaranteed income stream from the consumable.

I don’t disagree with any of your other thoughts on the subject, I just don’t agree with equating track manufacturers with companies that make a product that has a high margin consumable.

49

From my perspective…(newbie new layout)

I started with NOTHING only 2 months ago, I mean no locos, no rolling stock, NOTHING. This hobby is expensive as hell. Good thing I’m single… LOL

So far I have spent alot of money.

Benchwork $200 total

Walthers 39" flex $8/each x 30 = alot
PECO #6 turnouts $30/each x 28 = alot
PECO switch machines $10/each x 28 = alot
Cork roadbed $2/each x 35 = alot
WS Grass matt $22/each x 5 = alot

I’m actually ready to buy a new Digitrax system for about $750

Now, I still have to get DCC locos and rolling stock. OMG!

OUCH, my head and my wallat hurts.

50

John,

I couldn’t agree with you more except and there is always an except. I also had sticker shock when it came to the price of flex track when I started building the new layout. I bought a case from a LHS that was going out of business so I got it on the cheap but when i ran out the price tag hit me like a ton of bricks. So much for building the super empire using strictly Micro engineering flex track and turnouts YIKES! so I got in to bargain shopping mode and the bottom line was the cheapest price around was almost right under my nose in a hobby shop that does mainly internet business but does a little walk in traffic as well. So I almost fell off my chair when he gave me the price per length over the phone a whole dollar cheaper then anyone else I found. Oh BTW I found someone at the club who had some and couldn’t give Model Power flex track away. That just reinforced my belief that the cheapest is usually not the best choice. Hey if anyone out there likes it and wants to run it more power to you but thats my o/p on it. So I purchased another case and hopefully I shouldn’t need any more until I break through the wall into the next room some time next year.

So now it’s on to purchasing turnouts, switch machines, stationary decoders, a new command station, sound decoders and on and on and on and on. Every item mentioned getting increasingly more expensive. Yes hunted down a few more deals here and there but every time I made major purchases I could hear the dead presidents screaming as they left my wallet. So as the layout progresses and the budget keeps taking hits it’s looking to me like the track was one of the cheaper parts of the layout.

Lets face it, is there anything we buy that we wouldn’t like to get cheaper? When I start doing a little cyber window shopping I cringe at he price of some of the high end locomotives and models etc. Lets face it the face of the hobby has changed and I fell there is probably more money being made in it then ever b

51

More than $15 a turnout? No way.

52

Many years ago (like in the 1950s - 1960s) there was a product called True Scale milled roadbed, that was wood milled into roadbed shape with ties cut into it and grooves for handland track. It came in straight sections and various radius curves that you cut to fit and then hand laid rail onto it.

Back is its day it was really a premium priced product, too. I still have two True Scale #8 turnouts mounted on True Scale milled turnout roadbed that I assembled sometime around 1964 or '65.

53

Other industries do it all the time-- computer printer mfgrs practically give printers away (even to the point of paying you to take them sometimes) so they can gig you for the ink. A perfect example of the business model I’m describing. The Gillette razor company figured it out 100 years ago-- give away the razors and sell the blade refills and make a fortune.

Remind me to avoid investing in any business you decide to go into. The things you describe above have mass markets and by that I mean customers numbered in the millions not the thousands. That business model won’t work in a low volume business like model ralroading.

Even if there were millions in the hobby, there’s nothing hobby related that can be considered a consumable in the printer cartrige/razor blade model, not even paint and thinner (unless you’re a custom painter and go through gallons of the stuff). There is just no way to make the Gillette model work in the hobby. Especially not with track. Track’s a durable good, more like the razor than the blades.

You want to buy thousands of feet of track? How big is your layout going to be?

Andre

P.S. It’s a lot easier to put a lid on your ambitions than it is to increase your means.

54

It’s really quite simple, the buyer always pays too much, the seller never makes enough, so if you are paying too much, become a manufacturer/seller and solve the problem by using your ethics and suggestions.

I’m sure that anyone who takes this direction will make a small fortune, but in the usual Model Railroading parlance, “just make sure you start with a large fortune”.

This is a hobby, the needs are not life threatening and can be geared to your situation.

My personal approach after many years in the hobby and several large wasted layouts is to support the club I’m in, this way I get to build/operate a large layout, the club gets a better deal than I as an individual will get, I get to spend my money on more locos/rolling stock and also get to share the hobby more.

I have no qualms about buying track, scenery etc for the club layouts as I reap the benefits and get to share them as well.

Am I rich, NO! I’m a pensioner, and I enjoy this hobby because it gives me what I want in a “hobby” at prices I can afford with regulation of spending and priorities, I have a large collection of N Scale and it keeps growing, and I can make use of it on the clubs more than 100ft of Modular layout and around the same in the permanent layout (the two get connected together when the modular is not at an exhibition).

And if you think you have it tough, come and be a model railroader in Australia (we are wrapped in the $ value at the moment and still pay double what you do).

Ted (Teditor) Freeman

Secretary - Darling Downs Model Railway Club Inc.

Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia.

55

Yep. good ol’ Deflation. That would grind everything down.

Restoring cars would be just more expensive. People sell a lot of driver quality restored cars at a 50% loss in terms of what they spent in restoring----

56

I use only ATLAS track and turnouts. Their price has more than doubled sinced I have been in the hobby.

Still, more than worth it for me, since I have limited time, skills, funds and ambition for my passion.

57

John,

Instead of us speculating infinitum ad nauseum about prices, wouldn’t it be better to ask the manufacturer directly why their track seems to cost so much nowadays? At least you might be able to get clearer answers to your questions. It’s a stab in the dark otherwise.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic being taboo. It simply boils down to four (4) basic options if you don’t like the price of something; albeit track, locomotives, supplies, etc:

  • Find it cheaper (discount vendor or buying in bulk)

  • Build it cheaper (small scale - from individual parts and supplies)

  • Manufacture it cheaper (large scale - This drives the price down because of quantity)

  • Don’t buy or build it at all

As you’ve already stated, John, point 4 is NOT an option if you want to enjoy MRRing.

Given the history of MRRing, we are quite blessed with the abundance and quality of things available at this moment in time because of technological advances in manufacturing. Our “founding fathers” didn’t have that luxury and had to pretty much scratch-build just about everything in those early years. With those advances, though, come an increase in cost.

Tom

58

Its not the actual price point that gets me. Its that it just seems so disproportionately expensive for some reason.

59

Just a few points, then back to lurking.

In 1975, when I first started model railroading on my own, benchwork materials and track were the obvious budget busters for a guy bringing home $500/month (and no kids then, either!). Rent was $170 to $225 (I couldn’t stay in the $225 place because I couldn’t afford it), the car payment was $140. Hobby budget was $20/month, IIRC.

With flex track at $1 per length from mail order, and turnouts around $4 each, commercial track was too rich for my blood. I decided to try hand laying. The big difference wasn’t so much in total cost, but in cost/hour to enjoy the hobby. Building a turnout from roadbed to wired, finished, detailed and weathered end result probably cost a buck in materials, but took 4 hours.

Which is the same reason I used Campbell structure kits instead of plastic, or Silver Streak car kits instead of Athearn BB. The number of hours with the craftsman style kits drove the cost/hour lower than the faster, cheaper stuff.

Hand laying regular track costs about the same in materials for commercial rail, ties, and spikes per foot as flex track. The savings is in turnouts, which cost about $4-$5 in materials to hand lay.

Nickel silver rail is harder on dies than either brass or steel - ask ME if you don’t believe me. So the dies through which nickel silver rail is pulled have to be replaced more often. And almost any firm capable of pulling the rail requires a minimum quantity that will take years to sell - ask LaVancil about his prized code 81 rail that he still has for sale decades after he had it made. Trout Engineering is still selling Tru-Scale wood roadbed from left over stocks. Can you afford to tie up your money for that long?

Spikes and ties - you can make your own. Steve Hatch at Railway Engineering (http://www.railwayeng.com/ allows you to compete with his custom turnout business by telling you how to make your own spikes

60

Quality, in terms of actual prototypical looks, could suffer here as well. You want cheaper you pay for it somewhere–

Sorry tstage, but this IS an option----don’t we call it “Armchair MRRing”?[:-,][:-^][:D]

There is also Virtual MRR’ing as well—but you need a computer for that.

Or operations with waybills and such as a deck of cards----play it out like a card game–[:-^]