I have been trying to build by layout for quite a while now and do not seem to be able to get the grasp of soldering. I am currently trying to power the frogs on my turnouts and am destroying turnouts in the process. In my attempt to get the solder to adhere to the frog I end up overheating the frog to the point that the plastic around it gets soft and the frog gets out of alignment. I seem to have this problem a lot. I have a hard time trying to get the solder to adhere to anything. The solder tends to form little balls and doesn’t want to stick to anything. I use flux and I try to make sure all surfaces are clean before I start. I have had this problem also when solder rails together. Can somebody steer me in the right direction. Am I using the wrong solder, the wrong flux or the wrong soldering iron?
What solder are you using? did you get solder that is for electrical and not plumbing? You should find a metal screw that fits in the frog hole from the bottom side, solder the wire to the screw, then put the screw in the hole.
the trick to soldering and getting it to adhere: all surfaces that you intend to solder must be heated together until the solder “flows” onto the surface/area. Once cooled, you’ll have a nice bond.
If you could give us the specifics of the solder, flux and iron we would be in a better position to answer your questions. Who is the manufacturer of each, what wattage is the iron, what tip are you using, what is the solder made from (i.e. does it have lead in it and if so, what percentage) etc. etc…
There are so many variables that we could write a book describing all the possible scenarios, but I will try to give you a few things to consider:
Beading solder suggests that either the frog is not hot enough or the surface is not clean. Ironically you are applying too much heat because the plastic is melting. The trick is to apply sufficient heat quickly so the joint heats up as fast as possible, get the solder onto the joint, and then get the iron off as soon as the solder flows.
What type and size of solder are you using. Ideally you want a very small diameter (1/16") low melting point solder with a rosin core. If you are trying to use a large diameter solder like the stuff used for plumbing it takes much longer for the heat to melt the solder (we’re talking micro seconds here but you want to apply heat for the shortest possible time). If you are using lead free solder, again like the plumbing stuff, it is harder to melt than low temp lead solder so you have to apply more heat - not good! Don’t worry about the lead content - you’re not going to lick the joints. Just don’t inhale the fumes! Look for solder designated for electronics if you are not sure what will work. This is one that will work:
What type of flux are you using? Make absolutely sure that it is not acid based. Too many potential problems down the road and a lot of cleanup effort required. Here is one example of a suitable flux:
It sounds like we’re talking about Atlas turnouts here, and the frog is not easily soldered, as it’s some sort of white metal. PC99’s suggestion about the screw is a good one, but I’d use a brass screw and pre-tin it before putting it in place. If you also pre-tin the end of the wire, even a fairly low-wattage iron should easily soldered the two together after the screw is in place.
Dave has pretty-well covered soldering technique, and I’ll second his suggestion of using heat sinks. In most cases, wet paper towels work well - you don’t need a whole towel, but it should be wet (not just damp) and there should be several layers of it, as a hot iron will quickly turn that water to steam. As long as they’re wet, the ties won’t melt. If there’s ample room to work, use the biggest (highest wattage) iron you have for soldering rail joiners - you want lots of heat fast, before it can be drawn away from the joint by the rail.
the beads indicates either not hot enough or no flux (dirty).
electrical solder (radio shack) contains flux (i think it has a hollow tube). Plumbing solder has no flux, don’t use plumbing solder.
Remember to heat the surface being soldered, not the solder.
it’s easier if you “tin” each surface first (see below). If both the rail and the wire are tinned, have some solder on them, they will attach easier once reheated and additional solder is applied. But even tinned surface may need a little flux.
to “tin” the end of a wire, heat the wire with the soldering iron. Give it a chance to to get hot. Then put the end of the solder into the corner between the wire and the soldering tip. The first thing you should see is the flux melting onto the surface, then the solder flowing. The solder should harden shinny, not dull
i know ideally you should only have to touch the solder to the surface, but the contact area between the solder tip and surface is pretty small. A technician at work described touching the solder in the corner between the soldering iron tip and surface. Once the solder flows between the tip and surface, there is much more contact area between the soldering iron tip and the surface and more heat can flow better.
soldering is actually a chemical bond, more than mechanical. There is a very strong bond between the surfaces
I will add a tip about the tip. Get yourself some of the Radio Shack Tip Cleaner. It comes in a small tin about 1.5" diameter. You stick the tip of the hot iron in it to clean it. It may need a little tinning, if so do that immediately after dipping the tip in the cleaner. Otherwise, it will be all shiny with nice clean, hot solder making heat transfer easy. You’ll find this makes things easier, faster than you’ve believed possible once you try it.
Don’t miss what doctorwayne said above: Soldering to the Atlas frog is all but impossible. I run a #2-56 flat head brass screw into the lug provided on the frog, and solder my feeder to that. Once painted, it’s hardly noticeable.
I am currently using a Weller SP40L 40 watt pencil style soldering iron. It has a chisel shaped tip and I have noticed now that the tip is loose and when I tighten the screw it just comes loose again.
I am using a Rosin Solder Flux paste. The solder is a fine wire type and I believe it has a rosin core. I don’t have the packaging anymore that would tell me more about it.
I am looking at a Pro Line 70watt Soldering Station that is available at Radio Shack. It has a variable conrol for the heat of the iron. Anyone have an opinion about this iron or any other?
i have an old iron from when i was a kid and a very nice professional one i brought home from work. The tip of my old one often gets loose and needs to be tightened. The solder iron connection on the nicer one sometimes gets loose. It sometimes takes me a while to realize that the tips not getting hot.
rather than spend $$, why not just make sure the tip is hot and get some experience soldering. Touch the solder to the tip to test it. It’s your skill that’s going to make the difference, not the $$ of the soldering iron.
I have a RS 64-053 60W digital soldering station I’m really happy with. It does everything around here except solder feeders directly to my 12 gauge bus wire.
gregc is correct about checking that your tip is tight, as that really affects heat transfer. I will say that a new soldering instrument at least allows peace of mind about the tool being right, if well-chosen, and clean.
I think I like the screw idea. Where would I find these #2-56 flat head brass screws? Is this something that a typical llocal hardware store would carry?
If these are Atlas turnouts - STOP! The frog material is extremely difficult if not impossible to solder to. Instead of melting any more off, what you need are some brass screws. I think 1-72 but I’m not near any to check to be 100% sure. I did mine BEFORE installing the turnout, so I put the screw in from underneath. I didn;t even tap the hole, nor are the screws I used self-tapping, however the metal is so soaft they did tap themselves. I ran the screw in until it was flush on the top side - a dab of black paint then hides the brass dot in the hole. Then it was extremely easy to solder a wire to the brass screw for power.
And after all that - I never hooked a single one up. I have a green wire (frogs are green, ya know) under the layout at every turnout, not connected. Turns out even my smallest loco doesn;t hesitate over the unpowered frog. If these were larger frog number turnouts, it probably would, and I would beed power. The other trick is that I have power feeds on all three legs of the turnout, 6 feeders around every turnout. With Atlas you can do this.
doctorwayne has hit the nail on the head if you are using Atlas turnouts. That would explain a lot. However, if you are getting the same results when soldering rail joiners then there is a problem with your technique (UNLESS you are using steel rail which is pretty rare these days).
Also, as has been said, the loose tip is a major deficiency. If you can’t get it to stay tight it may be that a new tip or a new iron is in order.
I use two soldering tools. The first is a Weller 100/140 watt soldering gun and it handles anything that will need a lot of heat but can be used on lighter stuff if the tip can touch the work without coming in contact with anything else. For fine work I have a 5 - 40 watt iron with variable heat control:
It has a variety of tips but I usually use the pencil tip.
For stuff like soldering a wire to the brass screw in the frog the small unit will work fine. For decoder installations etc. it works great. For rail joiners the Weller gun would be a much better choice provided that you have done the prep properly and you are using the wet paper towel trick.
First off RANDY is correct about the screw size being 1-72. And from what I am gathering, from your posts, you need to polish up on your soldering skills some, with some practice you’ll find that it is not the tools, per say, but how they are used.
The other point I would like to say, is about the frogs, they can be soldered, but you need the correct solder to achieve that. I use a solder called Stay-Brite silver bearing solder, use stay clean flux with it. It is a soft solder with a little silver in the alloy. I found that it solders a lot of materials that 50/50,40/60 and 95/5 won’t work with. It is a bit more expensive than the other solders, you may probably only be able to get it at a Welding supply store, not any big box store. Also you should really review that link I provided in my first reply, there are many helpful tips for someone learning to solder, but that of course is up to you. [:)] Practice.
Can’t speak to soldering on Atlas frogs, but for improving soldered joints in general I’ll put another recommendation in for the Radio Shack tip cleaner that Mike mentioned. It really does improve heat transfer and makes soldering much, much easiers. This is coming from someone who really struggled with soldering in the past.
Lion’s tips are entertaining, but also good to keep in mind. “Unfortunate incidents” do tend to happen with soldering irons. I managed to turn one side of a new spool of solder into a single melted lump not long ago.