Does the engineer move the throttle based on how the train feels to his/her senses or are there precise rules as to when the throttle is advanced i.e. at 24 mph, 35 mph etc? I’ve noticed that some engineers open the throttle a notch and then pull back a notch or two as the train begins to move, I’m guessing they’re using slack to their advantage… train begins to move and then slows a tad, allowing the cars to give the locomotives a bit of a bump… at that point the engineer once again advances the throttle… and so on until the train is up to speed.
Can’t speak for all carriers, mine had Train Handling Rules that goverened how fast a throttle could be advanced - all of those rules were based on getting the entirety of the train moving - once the train was moving it was in the hands of the Engineer (or the ‘engineer surrogate’ programs of EMD or GE depending on the power on the head end).
There are a lot of variables involved, as one might guess.
Ideally, one wants to be smooth, so as not to break anything (like a knuckle), and not use so much power that the wheels of the locomotives slip, but still get the train moving to the desired speed fairly quickly.
Are we on an upgrade or a downgrade (or level)? Is the train bunched or stretched?
In reality, it’s not much different than starting out from a stoplight with your car. Just a lot bigger.
No skill involved in starting a train on level track. Starting a tonnage train on an upgrade is tougher, especially if all the engines are at the front of the train. You have to release the brakes, which takes time, and you don’t want to pull hard until all the brakes are released, but you don’t want to roll downhill backwards when the brakes do release.
The November 2016 issue of Trains -
http://trn.trains.com/issues/2016/november-2016
- had this ‘railroader’s recollection’ piece:
In My Own Words: They don’t train them like they used to
Two experienced railroaders move a train out of a tunnel [pgs. 58 - 59]
The essence of the story was how they got a CN train - stalled in the former GTW St. Clair Tunnel from Sarnia, Ontario to Port Huron, Michigan after breaking a knuckle - moving again, with only 0.859 HP/ton ! It was a done with a whole lot of experience and judgment in balancing the brake release over the length of the train with adding power, etc. The issue is available from Kalmbach for $6.99 &etc. - https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/trn161101
There are lots of other similar stories from time to time, involving steam and diesel, all over the world. One of my favorites was by Don Phillips about a Beyer-Garratt recovering after a stall on a sharp curve:
Only .85 hpt? Ha. CN is running our unit trains at .38 hpt with AC power.
Yes, no skill at all with a 12000 ton 10000ft train comprised of loads and empties with lots of cusioned/long travel drawbars slopped together with the slack bunched when the inbound crew stopped. (Note about slopped together. Built to meet system standards, but still puts a blocks of empties right in front of loads, etc.) Come out too fast on the throttle and you might just find that weak knuckle. Or drawbar.
As for starting out on a grade. I once started a heavy manifest with a two on the front and a DPU on the back end on our ruling grade. I had been having problems with the DPU loading eratically and had reported it to locomotive mtce. They thought the problem was dirty fuel filters. We finally got over the top of the hill. When we got into my home terminal, the MIC (mechanic in charge) was there to change out the filters. I told the outbound engineer of our problems.
I talked to him about a week later. He said halfway through his trip they discovered the problem wasn’t the fuel filters. He had still been having problems after they were changed. They had been stopped on level ground waiting on traffic and when they started to move he had decided for some reason to start the DPU up first. It started pulling them backwards. The DP had been setup in the originating yard wrong. There’s a switch/button when linking the DP for “Same as/Opposite as” orientation to the lead controlling unit.&nb
Engineers are the original slackers!
The reality of what their job encompasess is controlling the slack within whatever size train they are charged with operating. Mishandling the slack very easily results in broken knuckles, pulled out drawbars and derailments - all because the engineer did not control the slack properly with the tools at his disposal - the throttle, dynamic brakes, air brakes and on some carriers Distributed Power Units throughout the train. In the world of yesteryear they held the Conductor & Flagman’s lives in their hands - unexpected slack actions could kill them, bouncing them around inside the caboose or throwing them off the caboose. Without cabooses today there are no other crew members to comment on the engineers abilbity to control the slack in his train.
I’ve told the story before, but here goes -
I grew up alongside what is now the CSX Saginaw Sub in Milford, Michigan. There’s a bit of a grade there, and a curve that is apparently to be feared.
Happened upon a train of hoppers (don’t recall if empty or full, and couldn’t see the locomotives or caboose, so don’t know which way they were headed, although I’d guess north) that was stalled. This was back in the day of friction bearings.
Starting a train with friction bearings often included bunching the slack before pulling it back out, so only one car was started in motion at a time. For a hundred car train, that might involve some 200’ of slack, more or less.
Which explains the slack action in the caboose.
It took several tries to get the train rolling again. Each time the engineer bunched, then stretched the train, there was a resounding “bangbangbangbang” up and down the consist.
My memory of that sound was as a young (16 yr old) kid with my dads car, driving in Cincinnati near the produce terminals on the tracks near the Ohio river waterfront between two rows of ice type refrigerator cars and the train to my right started up with that BANG…BANG right outside my window. It reverberated off the cars to my left. Thought I had had it… I wasn’t going fast and it was a public area but it left an indelible memory.
Balt, that was b-a-a-a-d! [+o(]
But they’re an interesting bunch.
I see what you did there… [:^)]
What is an engineer surrogate program? How does it work?
EMD’s is known as Leader; GE’s is known as Trip Optimizer.
When crews take charge of their locomotive consist they identify the to the locomotives software the territory they will be operating as well as the pertinent details of their train (loads, empties, tonnage, type of train). Once the train is in motion the surrogate will then (to my knowledge - AND I AM NOT AN ENGINEER) take over operation of the train while it is opeating on CLEAR signals or proper block authority in Dark territory. The engineer can take back control at anytime when he views it is necessary to comply with a less than CLEAR signal indication or any other reason. Use of these surrogate programs is encouraged by the company, and their use is checked by company officials when data from locomotives is downloaded for further review. The company’s position is that the use of these programs saves fuel in the operation of trains when compared to fully engineer controlled.
I am sure the Engineers that participate in this forum have much more accurate and detailed explanations of these systems.
[quote user=“BaltACD”]
JPS1
BaltACD
Can’t speak for all carriers, mine had Train Handling Rules that goverened how fast a throttle could be advanced - all of those rules were based on getting the entirety of the train moving - once the train was moving it was in the hands of the Engineer (or the ‘engineer surrogate’ programs of EMD or GE depending on the power on the head end).
What is an engineer surrogate program? How does it work?
EMD’s is known as Leader; GE’s is known as Trip Optimizer.
When crews take charge of their locomotive consist they identify the to the locomotives software the territory they will be operating as well as the pertinent details of their train (loads, empties, tonnage, type of train). Once the train is in motion the surrogate will then (to my knowledge - AND I AM NOT AN ENGINEER) take over operation of the train while it is opeating on CLEAR signals or proper block authority in Dark territory. The engineer can take back control at anytime when he views it is necessary to comply with a less than CLEAR signal indication or any other reason. Use of these surrogate programs is encouraged by the company, and their use is checked by company officials when data from locomotives is downloaded for further review. The company’s position is that the use of these programs saves fuel in the operation of trains when compared to fully engineer controlled.
I am sure the Engineers that participate in this forum have much more accurate and
I might be more tempted to compare it to the fly-by-wire throttle in your car.
[quote user=“JPS1”]
BaltACD
JPS1
BaltACD
Can’t speak for all carriers, mine had Train Handling Rules that goverened how fast a throttle could be advanced - all of those rules were based on getting the entirety of the train moving - once the train was moving it was in the hands of the Engineer (or the ‘engineer surrogate’ programs of EMD or GE depending on the power on the head end).
What is an engineer surrogate program? How does it work?
EMD’s is known as Leader; GE’s is known as Trip Optimizer.
When crews take charge of their locomotive consist they identify the to the locomotives software the territory they will be operating as well as the pertinent details of their train (loads, empties, tonnage, type of train). Once the train is in motion the surrogate will then (to my knowledge - AND I AM NOT AN ENGINEER) take over operation of the train while it is opeating on CLEAR signals or proper block authority in Dark territory. The engineer can take back control at anytime when he views it is necessary to comply with a less than CLEAR signal indication or any other reason. Use of these surrogate programs is encouraged by the company, and their use is checked by company officials when data from locomotives is downloaded for further review. The company’s position is that the use of these programs saves fuel in the operation of trains when compared to fully
From my observation standing at trackside, some engineers seem to remember their HS physics and/or have an intuitive understanding of the Law of Conservation of Momentum. Once the train is up to about 2 mph they ease up on the throttle, thereby allowing the slack to run in,giving the engines a nice little shove. They rinse and repeat the process until the train is up to track speed. Pretty smart way to do it, and I wonder if that’s taught or if they somehow figure it out on the job. Other engineers (I’d say they’re in the minority) simply open up the throttle and let it go… sometimes one sees the wheels slip and alot of sparking, suggesting that using the train’s momentum to one’s advantage is the better way to go.
Jeff, thanks for the excellent discussion of Leader, etc.