Some Pacifics regularly assigned to the Peekskill trains had them. What I had temporarily forgotton was that the Poughkeepsie trains used downgraded mainline coaches, some not even reseated for higher capacity. These did have axle generators, and there was not problem when a Hudson was assigned to one of these trains. I would imagine Pacifics were the only power on the two Peekskill trains, two in in the morning with mus and two out in the evening. The Brewster trains also had downgraded mainline coaches with axle generators, and Pacifics with an occasional Ten Wheeler powered these trains. The 4-6-0 would have been one modernized with piston valves and modern valve gear, not one of the slide-valve types, borrowed from the Putnam if they were short of Pacifics. The Putnam coaches were arch-roof plain-Jain commuter cars, appearing identacle to those in the B&A Boston suburban service, and I just don’t remember whether the 4-6-0’s supplied lighting power. I think they did.
Another point. K4s replaced G5s just after electrication Wilmington-Sunnyside, when they became available, on the North Jersey Coast trains (NY & Long Branch). The reason was the use of the NEC Rahway-Newark`for trains to Exchange Place, most of which skipped South Amboy and none of which changed engines there, and the need to run at 90-100 mph to keep out of the way of the GG1-hauled trains. I first rode the NY&LB in 1951 and never saw anything but a K4 steam on the PRR trains. Later, of course, came Baldwin sharks briefly and then E-7s. Jersey Central was still using Ten Wheeler camelbacks, but these seemed to accelerate and run as fast the PRR trains, but with shorter consists.
Any remaining K2s and K3s during WW2 must have been in use west of Crestline, because I never saw any in operation ever. I doubt many K4s were retired before K2s and K3s. The two K5s were retired before many K4s, however.
The CNW 4-4-2’s (Supposedly topping 100 mph regularly) were regulated to commuter trains by the mid-40’s. The victims of new, larger motive power in a high-traffic period.
At least one CNW Atlantic that I know of survives in St. Louis; #1015.
A CMStP&P A! In what shape?
No, Dave. Not Milwaukee. This one was C&NW. A very remarkable, beautiful speedster of an engine with 81" drivers. This was C&NW engine 1015, reputed to be the C&NW’s very first 4-4-2. She’s preserved in St. Louis. I don’t know her current condition.
Tom
Dave, I was just looking through PRR motive power assignments for October 1, 1945 and found that six light Pacifics were leased to the Long Island as of that date. Two K2s, two K2sa and two K3s. Two K3s were shown assigned to the New York Division and two K2s on the Philadelphia Division. The remainder of the light Pacifics were scattered around the system, with quite a few in eastern Ohio. I was suprised to see how many actually were listed in service at that late a date.
“No, Dave. Not Milwaukee. This one was C&NW. A very remarkable, beautiful speedster of an engine with 81” drivers. This was C&NW engine 1015, reputed to be the C&NW’s very first 4-4-2. She’s preserved in St. Louis. I don’t know her current condition.
Tom"
She’s lookig a bit worse for wear, but in the next year or two will get a full cosmetic restoration. They are collecting donations in preparation for work to start.
When were the last K2s and KM3s scrapped? And how many k4s before that?
Over the past couple hours, I looked over a the list of locomotive assignments on the Keystone Crossings site, and came up with some interesting info. This is probably the source of Rfpjohn’s info too.
K2 and K3 engines were essentially the same, except for cylinder dimensions. The following Divisions were using K2/3 engines on Oct. 1, 1945, ranked from greatest to least numbers. I have not included Divisions that had no K2/3 engines at all, such as the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions.
Eastern Ohio Div., 2 K2s + 7K3s = 13 (plus 88 K4s)
Conemaugh Div., 2 K2s + 6 K2sa + 1 K3s = 9 (plus 0 K4s)
N. Y. Div., 3 K2s + 1 K2sa + 2 K3s = 6 leased to L. I. R. R.
N. Y. Div., 2 K2s not leased (plus 28 K4s)
Columbus Div., 1 K2s + 6 K3s = 7 (plus 62 K4s)
Philadelphia Div., 3 K2s + 2 K2sa = 5 (plus 0 K4s)
Indianapolis Div., 4 K2s (plus 0 K4s)
Lake Div., 1 K2s + 1 K3s = 3 (plus 0 K4s)
Erie & Ashtabula Div., 2 K2sa + 1 K3s = 3, (plus 0 K4s)
Ft. Wayne Div., 3 K3s, (plus 62 K4s)
Monongahela Div., 1 K2s + 1 K2sa = 2 (plus 0 K4s)
Buffalo Div., 1 K2s + 1 K2sa= 2 (plus 3 K4s)
Renovo Div., 1 K2s, (plus 0 K4s)
It was hard to read some of this, but it looks like 13 K2sa, 22 K3s, and 23 K2s. If I missed any, feel free to sue me.[:D]
On July 1, 1949, there were only 3 left: one K2s on the Columbus Div., one K2sa on the Monongahela Div., and one K3s on the Conemaugh Div. It looks like all K2/K3 engines were off the roster in 1950.
According to Edson’s book KEYSTONE STEAM & ELECTRIC, about 125 K4s engines were scrapped before 1949. I could have miscounted these. My eyes were involuntarily crossing by the time I finished! This left about 300 of the 425 unit K4s fleet (or about 70%) intact.
Tom
You know, I’d love to see Steamtown restore their Canadian 4-6-4t into an erzatz Jersey Central commuter locomotive and use it to pull their Jersey Central passenger cars. Yeah, I know it’s a Canadian engine but it’s almost a dead-ringer for a CNJ unit.
Not much chance of this happening, it seems it was all they could do to get that 0-6-0 up again.
It could be that I have missed the Camelback type because I am not familiar with them, or with their notation…it may have been mentioned in a number of replies and I wouldn’t know better. Were they not widely used in commuter service?
Yes, Camelback ten wheelers were used by the Jersey Central right til the end of steam operations in 1954(?), one continuing in excursion service a little longer (774). The Reading used Camelback ten wheelers until such power was purged from the roster in 1948. Earlier, they had alot of Amercans and Atlantics in the camelback form. The last of the Americans disappearing during WW2, mostly in work train service if in service at all by that time. The Atlantics made it til 1947, I think. Some leased to the PRSL in south Jersey. The Erie and the Lackawanna both used camelback power in commuter service into the 30’s, but I don’t think past that. D&H used camelback power on it’s Scranton-Carbondale commuter service, along with ten wheelers and Americans rebuilt into conventional engines, until well after the war. The Long Island had camelback ten wheelers and Atlantics into the early 30’s.
And yes, Keystone Crossings was my K2/3 source. I was trying to tabulate while riding Amtrak. Looks like I missed alot! Kinda Brian Williams’d my post!
After reading through that stuff, I think it should be renamed Keystone Crosseyes.
Tom
Yes Tom, that’s a pretty appropriate name! There is some pretty fascinating stuff there. Just going through those scads of engine numbers gives you some idea how big Pennsy was. It boggles the mind to think of how many people worked in every engine terminal, large and small!
ACF: Were any K4s scrapped before 1945 other than wrecked-damaged?
I found my copy of Edison’s book. Looking at the K4s, 8309 was scrapped due to wreck damage in 1938. There don’t seem to be any documented scrappings of the class until 1947. Looks like 1949 was a rough year for alot of Pennsy steam passenger power. I guess the diesels were really starting to bite! Interesting thing, the K3s class remained intact until 1946, except for the the five sold to the N&W. All are shown as scrapped between 12/46 and 10/49. I would not have guessed that of a minority class on the PRR.
My appologies to ACF.
The scrapping of K4s 8309 is interesting. I have seen a photo of this engine lying on her side at the base of a stone wall just east of the Pittsburgh station. She had derailed and fallen straight down, over the edge of that wall. Unfortunately, I can’t remember where I saw the photo. After an accident like that, scrapping was probably inevitable.
No. 8309 was built 9/1918, at a time when engines were assigned numbers according to the locations where they worked, and she had a Lines West PCC&StL number. Harry P. Albrecht published a small pamphlet in 1967 called PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD K-4s [sic] in his Steam Locomotives of Yesteryear series. In it, photos of Lines West K4s engines 8225, 8278, 8309 (in 1933), 8373 (in 1934), and 8378 (in 1938) show the original sandbox location ahead of the bell; 8122 (in 1934) shows the standard sandbox location behind the bell. All except 8378 are shown with the original “Hopper Tank” Lines West tender.
There are very few printed references to these special Lines West characteristics. but I think 7133 (a PFW&C number) still had the forward sandbox in the latter years when she worked New Jersey commuter trains.
Tom
Dave,
You mention the PRR G5 as being used on the LIRR.
They were also used in commuter service in Pittsburgh with service as far east as Greensburg and south as far as West Brownsville. I would imagine they went as far north as Beaver, PA or East Liverpool, OH but I have no idea how far west they went — Wheeling would seem a bit far and Pittsburgh Railways provided good, frequent service to Washington.
I’m not old enough to remember it well but I imagine there was a G5 on a Kennyword Park extra that I rode as a kid.
Were G5’s used anywhere else on the system?