Some time ago I found a photo on line showing a loco with the smokebox door open and a roaring inferno inside, which the crew were attempting to quench.
As I recall it was connected with a railfan excursion on the CPR in the late 1950’s, with the engine in service for the last time before retirement after standing dead for some time . I’m trying to find that photo again and the story that went with it.
Any any similar photos or stories would also be of interest.
Thanks y’all!
Since when does a train crew need to put out a fire in a steam loco? If that’s their approach, they should cal the fire department every time they start to fire one up.
But seriously folks…
I’ve never heard of that particular incident, but it sounds like an unusual situation. My best GUESS would be that they built up a big fire during the course of the day, and they forgot to let it die down a bit as they returned to the enginehouse. The result would be a fire that was too big to safely dump in the ashpit, or whatever they used for one (some places just have the excurion steam locos dump their ashes on a piece of metal that is set on top of the ties.)
I don’t know if this is the one you’re thinking of, but I have a video of a railfan steam excursion in Poland or Russia where the crew opened the front of the smokebox and started a fire in it – purely for show and of no benefit to anyone.
I don’t remember the name of the show offhand, but I think it was a program on RFD-TV satellite channel.
Sorry, I was thinking firebox, not smokebox. Duh. [banghead]
Perhaps they wanted to barbecue their kielbasa?
No not that video, definitetly in North America, but no hot dogs. [:P]
Smokebox fires are not unheard of. This can happen when coal dust gets blown down the tubes and mixes with the ash and cinders that accumulate in the screens. Poor firing know-how, excessive drifting without the blower and mechanical problems can do this. Opening up the throttle and shoving a couple shovels full of sand in the firebox can usually put the fire out. The soot and sand will smother the flames and remove the oxygen from the fire. Opening the smokebox front is dangerous while on fire. Besides adding more oxygen to the fire you run the risk of super heated steam blasting the hot ash and cinders out the front instead of the stack.
Pete
Thanks for that info Pete. I’m still searching for the photo and the story attached to it. It will be interesting to find out why the crew opted to open the smokebox. It looked pretty warm in there.
Was it normal practice to have a sand box handy in the cab for coal burners? I 've been on oil burners that had tsand for cleaning the flues.
Apart from visual clues e.g. sparks, flames etc starting to come out the stack, what other clues were there - blow back into the cab, change in exhaust sound or such?
What would be the consequences of an uncontrolled smoke box fire (apart from risk of setting the countryside on fire) - damage, explosion, crew injury and such?
Just as the oil burners coking up the flue pipes, the coal burners would soot up the flues something awful. The railroads being as cheap as they were would not opt for the best coal that money could buy. Sulphated ash would coat the pipes and block heat transfer to the water on the other side. Just like the oil burners the rock cookers would sand blast the flues to improve steaming in the boiler. This ash and sand turned to glass would accumulate in the smokebox and need to be cleaned regularly with a schedule dependent on the quality of coal burned. The test run of the PRR S2 6-8-6 turbine turned out several wheelbarrows of ash from the smokebox. This was one of the issues that plagued the locomotive until the scrappers torch took it away. Ash would build and block the lower superheater flues, clog the netting, ruin the blower rings and belch out cinders that would cover the train for several car lengths. They tried eliminating some issues with those ugly elephant ear smoke lifters to some improvement.
S2 as built. http://crestlineprr.com/prr6200.jpg.html
S2 with the first set of lifters. http://crestlineprr.com/s2ebbroadway.jpg.html
S2 with the final set of lifters. http://crestlineprr.com/s2onttcr.jpg.html
Visual clues would be a fire from the stack. Lack of draft would be another. Besides burning holes in the netting which would allow large cinders to go up the stack or possibly warping baffle plates the biggest danger would be a leaking flue pipe or super heater tube. Before opening the smokebox front it would be wise to blow down the boiler to alleviate some pressure. You would not want super heated steam to blow out at y
They may have been attempting to put out the fire because of broken staybolts or leaking flues, or even broken or missing fire bricks.
Crandell
Loose fire on the grates plus low-cutoff wheel spin (throttle opened too fast) equals fire in the smokebox as the burning coal gets sucked through the tubes.
Unlike the firebox, which is designed to contain an inferno, the smokebox and its fittings can be damaged if there’s anything hotter than exhaust steam up there.
The Fire Department would have blasted the smokebox fire with a hose, water would have run back through the lower tubes (possibly cracking them, or the front tube plate) into the firebox… Hot metal and cold water are a BA-AD combination.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
ASSUMING THIS WASN’T JUST SOME PHOTO-OP STUNT,
European steam seems to frequently have a two-handled assembly for holding the smokebox access door shut–a few hammer blows, and it could likely be quickly opened.
The OP thinks it was a North American loco. Those almost always have a door with a whole bunch of nuts holding it shut. Now, if there were a fire in the smokebox, how many of YOU would think it a bright idea to open it up and have a look? And how long would it take to open it? And would the fire have burnt out by the time you got it open? Why does anyone think this fire started while the loco was being operated?
I’m pretty sure that this fire, if it happened, was intentionally started in a cool (or pretty cool) engine. The smokebox door was opened for maintenance reasons. One possibility is that someone(s) noticed a lot of sticky gooey crud on the inside and wanted it gone before they crawled in for work. It was thought a good idea to burn it off–hence a fire. The stuff was most likely creosote, which condensed out of the combustion products. Creosote is generated by fires that aren’t hot enough–normally it will be burned off back at the firebox.
I say the above as someone who dealt with a stack fire in my neighbor’s wood stove.
Another possibility is that the fire was set in the smokebox to cure the just “painted” smokebox. Quickly. Or maybe it was an attempt to loosen stuck parts (I’m a penetrating-oil kind of guy, but ya never know…).
Ed
I got to wondering why the OP put this question in the Model Railroad section of the forum instead of going to the steam engine/Trains section, where there just might be a wee bit more knowledge on the matter.
I GOT IT!
He wants to put one of those model flickering fire thingys inside an HO smokebox with a bunch of guys gathered around peering at it and wants us to justify it.
Oh, tricky. Very tricky.
Ed
I seem to remember a pic of that incident in Trains sometime around 1960 and, IIRC, it was one of CPR’s last remaining 4-4-0’s that were used on an excursion. Unfortunately, I don’t remember the loco number. I think the last CPR 4-4-0’s in service were #'s 29, 136 and 144. Here’s a pic of 144 with a train in late 1959: http://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/cpr144.htm
CPR 29: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/CP29.JPG
CPR 136: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/CP136.JPG
Andre
There may be a wee bit more knowledge over on the steam engine/Trains section, but not so much fun as firing up the discussions here.
Hey, that flickering smoke box fire is a neat idea, or maybe modifying a smoke unit to emit flames and sparks? Hmm, now that I think about it I once had a mechanical toy loco that shot sparks from the stack when pushed along. [;)]
Thanks for those links! Nice photos.
CPR 29 is on display in front of the CPR’s HQ in Calgary
CPR 136 with the South Simcoe Railway, returned to service in August 2011 after extensive restoration work (Wickipedia)
CPR 144 is on static display indoors at Exporail (Canadian Railway Museum) St. Constant, across the river from Montreal.
(I’m still looking for that elusive smokebox fire photo and story)
After comments from several old timers from the steam era, comments above and a not-too-successful on-line search for information on smoke box fires, I decided to write a “Tale from the Grizzly” based on that information, and a large dollop of imagination. So here it is, “A Tale of Fire in the Smokebox”.
I’ve had fun writing the tale, which I recognize won’t win any prizes. Any comments welcomed of course. Kudos in advance to anyone who manages to read the whole story! 
Hmm, maybe not[:(][:(][*-)]… My luck, it would happen in a tunnel and catch the flammable “rock” inside on fire[:^)]. I like the thought, and want to model an area burned from a loco, but maybe not that way…[:-^]
Duane
I have no info on this photo and don’t know if it could be related to a smoke box fire. The ends of the tubes seem quite black.
Maybe the little engine was allergic to coal dust and blew its snout off when it sneezed.
Brent.
No smokebox fire there. That is what’s called a boiler explosion. The top of the dome is blown apart too. It does not look like a crown sheet failure from lack of water but this one looks like the pop valve failure. That old wood burner 4-4-0 was designed about 170PSI max pressure. That barrel must have blown at about 225 psi. A failure such as this is the reason for the non adjustable , sealed pop valves. One rule was the monthly inspection and test of the pop valves on modern steam locomotives.
Pete
Can’t help but wonder how far the front end of the engine was blown by the explosion. Reasonably complete, It is now tucked in behind the cab end. Presumably the engine was rebuilt.
