This is an article about an excursion loco that set a number of lineside fires.
http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/331091/steam-train-fires-investigation-begins
It will be interesting to see what the outcome of the investigation shows.
Bill
Isn’t that why spark arrestors (for both steam and diesel) were invented??
Spark arresters don’t stop 'em all.
The source may not have been the stack.(Especially w/ steam engine & wind involved. Hopefully the investigation is objective and not a witch hunt.)
(Exteme dry conditions didn’t help either. Conversely, trains get blamed for others carelessly smoking and truck sparks from adjoining roads.)
Back when I was a resident of the Frozen North (Rapid City, SD) lineside fires in the dry grass adjacent to the track were a just about weekly event - and not a steam locomotive in sight. The cause? A combination of sparks from hot brake shoes and an unlimited supply of tinder. That dry grass would blaze up at the slightest provocation, and heavy braking on downgrades led to literal showers of sparks.
Chuck
Yes, that’s right Virginia “Man invented fire!” and things havn’t been the same since.
To say nothing of lightening strikes, lost cigarettes, down power lines, spilled fuel and any stray spark of steel against any surface - Its a dangerous world.
Ralph Johnson who designed steam locomotives in the 1940’s for Baldwin Locomotive Works, writes in his book The Steam Locomotive, Chapter 5, “Locomotive Cinders” the following treatise,
"It is a rather common belief that locomotives are responsible for many fires because of the fact that a certain quantity of sparks are ejected from the stack. This may have been true during the era when the demands upon the locomotive were not as severe as at present, and when the design and construction of spark-arresting devices were not as highly developed as they are today. But this opinion was based upon a lack of knowledge of the behavior of sparks i.e., their quantity, fire-carrying characteristics, ignition powers, and distribution after leaving the locomotive stack.
Dr. W.F.M. Goss, from 1896 to 1907, made extensive studies of this subject at Purdue University, and published his findings in a book entitled “Locomotive Sparks.” HIs work was extended and amplified by Mr. L.W. Wallace, who published “Fire Losses and Locomotive Sparks”, which is probably the most complete treatise on this subject to date…
The front end of a modern locomotive has two features which act to render the hot particles of fuel and ashes free from fire hazard; first, the diaphram or baffle plate and second, the netting. The exhaust steam which induces the draft and the deflecting action of the baffle plate causes a cyclonic action in the front end. This breaks up the sparks that reach the front end by violent cont
Dr d, I don’t know the science behind steam locomotive’s causing fires but I do know the folks over at the cumbres and Toltec take the issue seriously, to the extent that they have 6x6 fire equipment following their trains. Probably not concerned with a rogue cigarette.
You know what they say where thier smoke thier is fire.
Speculation is that the ashpan door was not closed.
Bill
Robert Wilson,
Thanks for your observation on the Cumbries Toltec.
The point I was writing about was that a great deal of engineering has gone into the design of steam locomotives. The general understanding of the public today is grossly ignorant about steam locomotives and steam in general. For example, a broken radiator hose in the car causes great alarm and most people cannot tell you the difference between a steam leak of hot water and a fire. People don’t understand what steam is anymore.
It would not be good for a general panic to enter the public mindset that steam locomotives are a real fire hazzard. A great deal of engineering went into the design and they operated for almost everywhere for over 100 years without burning down America.
Another issue today is “the smoke abatement issue.” It was the habit of most steam excursion locomotives to do a “run by” with the engine to smoke it up for the cameras. This was uncharacteristic of steam locomotives in general and frowned upon by managment. It is in my opinion bad PR for this practice and gives the public the idea that steam locomotives ought to not run because of air polution.
I am sure Cumbries and Toltec are on “the fire watch” just to insure that no bad press issues develop. After all the D&RGW operated for 75 years or more and didn’t burn down Colorado.
Doc
David Wardale in The Red Devil and Other Tales of the Age of Steam has maybe a short 2-page account of a disastrous trip on a steam-hauled local mixed freight-passenger train – maybe it seemed disastrous to Wardale but the crew shrugged it off as a normal trip.
Maybe it is just me, but I found it side-splitting in its humor regarding “why the engines are given numbers.” Hint: it has something to do with lineside fires.
Hey Dr. D!
I think the only folks that don’t appreciate a good smoky steam runby are the extreme environmentalists. Then again, I’m not sure just what they enjoy. Wind chime symphonies?
The general public as a whole gets a kick out of a steam crew hammin’ it up for the crowd, the smokier and steamier the better! The GP trackside know it’s just short-term for everyones enjoyment.
Let’s hope they’re not watching something like this on YouTube… !
Made some good points doc, but I am sure its about more than bad press. With all the very dry conditions in the west and the many horrible fires of late, precautions are being taken. Perhaps some body from the c&ts can clue us both in.
Nothing wrong with being a good and responsible neighbor. And I am knocking steam myself, I am a big of supporter as they come.
Wizlish,
Unbelievable photo of the Chinese steam at night! Sure can see what engineering went into the American spark arrester designs and their effectiveness.
I might also be timely to speak about the limits of American exhaust development. The cesation of production of American steam locomotives came about just as substancial developments were about.
Power increases were forthcoming with the redesign of locomotive exhaust. The Union Pacific and others were developing locomotives with multiple stacks such as UP844. This was to better draft the firebox and free the cylinder exhaust restriction and related firebox draft.
The Norfolk And Western Y6 was sporting a redesigned front end with substancial engineering improvements in exhaust nozzel and angled smoke stack - that’s right the Y6 stack was tilted forward to improve engine performance.
Paul Keifer designer of NYC Niagara and others had noted that poppet valve gear was the way of the future because it separated the intake and exhaust events of the valve gear allowing optomization of both and developing increased size and flow of cylinder exhaust and intake passages. Keifer and others were also at the design point of realizing firebox chemistry revealed that complete burning of the coal required “over fire jets” - the introduction of air into the fire above the grate to facilitate complete combustion. These designers had achieved substancial performance from the locomotive by adding “combustion chambers” to the firebox - extending the firebox into the boiler tube section of the boiler. This shortened the flues and resultant heating area but increased the power and efficiency of the engine.
Sure was wonderful to see the Chinese doing a retrograde engineering back to the days of the 1850’s with their wanton loss of stack control of sparks!
You devil’s advocate you!
Doc
Yikes Wizlish, that is SOME display of sparks! I’m not sure if the fireboy’s overfueling his fire, someone left the spark arrestor back at the roundhouse, or they’re just putting on a show for the camera.
At any rate, a display like that in the old days of American steam would have gotten the head-end crew called on SEVERAL carpets.
It IS cool to see at any rate. Reminds me of some night shot photos in my Colin Garrett books where the steam engines look like volcanos on wheels.
A few years back the Illinois Railway Museum’s CB&Q Nebraska Zephyr articulated train with the EMD E5 on the point was run on the BNSF from Chicago to Quincy and back. I waited for it in Mendota. Reputedly the crew took the opportunity to stretch the engine’s legs and were running rather faster than the posted speed limit. As it passed and I was walking back to my car I suddenly noticed – I was in the middle of a grass fire! I do not know whether it was the locomotive or, as was rumored, the charcoal grill in the diner, that caused the sparks, but diesels have caused their share of trackside blazes.
Dave Nelson
It’s certainly true you don’t need a steam engine as a culprit to start a trackside fire. I recently read an article about the New Haven Railroads Poughkeepsie Bridge fire of 1974. The fire started after an eastbound (diesel-powered, obviously) freight passed over the bridge. No one to this day is sure what started the blaze, sparks from a hotbox, sparks from a dragging brake shoe, or whatever. There were some dark rumors of sabotage but they’ve never been proved either.
Suffice to say that was the end of the bridge for rail traffic, although it survives today as a pedestrian crossing, the Walkway Over The Hudson Historic Park.
Re. The Steam Video.
Wonder if that is being done ‘for effect’? for the camera? burning paper or wood chips? or bagasse? tossed in thru fire door over the coal fire when locomotive working hard. It slips at beginning of film, and, that too might have been intentional?
It appears there is some sort of hand signal by lamp between the cameraman and the locomotive cab using blueish lights and the sparks etc disappear just like that even when still working steam near the end.
Even there, it would be unlikely that locomotives sparked like that all the time.
It might be winter with lesser risk? as snow on ground.
Thank You.
Back in the early 1970’s I was a Police Officer in a small community along the Penn Central track between Detroit and Jackson Michigan. One Saturday afternoon I was requested by the local Fire Department to check on a small park the Village owned to see if a previous train had set any fires in the park because the GP-7 powering the train had started other fires along the mainline. I had watched the train go through and did not see any fires set but it was throwing a lot of black smoke as it went by!
About 8-10 years ago on the now gone Mn Zephyr line which was 50 feet from where I parked my truck. They had not cleaned the Diesel engines exhaust grates and they kept starting fires along the ROW During one summer drought. With A loose sweatshirt I put out a few little fires all by myself as the train slowly passed, passengers watched and a conductor asking if I had gotten all of them. I was out of breath when I was done. I sent the owner a complaint letter without my phone number. He looked me up and called to apologize. I’m sure owning a tourist RR line is some days like watching a circus act, hoping nothing goes wrong.
Railroading is and always was a dangerous profession - I was reading an old law book the other day on case law in Michigan - circa 1911. The case involved the “poling” of freight cars in a switch yard. Seems the engine crew could get finished earlier if they didn’t have to switch the engine on to every track to shuttle cars so they were in the habit of “poling” the cars on adjacent tracks. There was a public road through the switch yard with pedestrians walking the side walk when along come the switch engine with a pole extended to a car on the adjacent track. A pedestrian who took refuge between the two tracks was struck by the pole. Which incident resulted in injury and suit with the railroad and is imortalized in Michigan Case Law.
Yah, its not just lineside smoke that causes railroads problems.
Doc