Just curious. If I build my 3 level layout with wall brackets instead of a free standing benchwork, what is the best method?
Please point me to some good pages on the web about this. I love pictures [:D]
Electrolove,
Interesting you should start this thread because I faced the same quandary. My triple deck MA&G was begun using standard L-girder techniques. I have been very happy with the results. So far the bottom two levels are complete. Originally I planned on continuing the L-girder construction on the third level, until I saw an article by Don Spiro in the October 2005 Railroad Model Craftsman that introduced the shelf bracket system.
I was not familiar with these “heavy-duty” hollow brackets that were shown, so I went to Lowes and purchased some of the 24-inch ones. I am convinced that these are the way to go and I’ll be implementing them as I begin on my third level. If I were starting over (peri***he thought!), I think I would use the bracket system for all three levels. Even in the case of my peninsula, I could have built a stud wall for the brackets to hang from. My calculations show that the cost is a little more than traditional lumber, but the ease and speed of construction offsets the additional expense IMHO.
As I begin construction of my third level this summer, I’ll be posting pictures to my website. I’ll probably pass along my experiences here as well.
Cliff
RMC had a nice article on using shelf brackets last summer.
I’m using them as well - the double-rail versions are the only way to go. Just make sure you buy both the rails and the brackets at the same place from the same manufacturer - different manufacturers equipment does not play well together.
I’m using the ones by Rubbermaid that I get at Home Depot:
I used 10x12 L-shaped, U-channel shelf brackets for my last three level, screwed directly to the studwall. It worked well: the brackets were cheap ($.89 apiece), they went up FAST (200 in less than three hours), and they did their job. However, they WERE on top of the backdrop, and so were visible. They weren’t as visible in person once I overpainted them with sky and clouds, but they sjowed up in photos.
I think for my new two level, I’ll use them on the lowest level and the track-style shelf brackets for the upper level(s). You can add a backdrop on top of the tracks, making the brackets invisible.
Here are some better photos of my newest “dominoes” from underneath:
Short answer opinion (for a change) DON’T!
You REALLY want to know why not?
[8D]
Yes please hit me [:D]
Cliff, (maandg) I just spent two hours on your site an all I can say is WOW !!! I live in Jackson MS now and many of your scenes depict the surrounding area perfectly. Fantastic work, I am in awe.
Appologies for hi-jacking the thread.
Have fun & be safe,
Karl.
Some cautions about shelf brackets. I have used them but:
-
some of the systems are built so that the brackets have a slight upward tilt along their length. Can be fixed by filing the notches where the bracket fits into the track, but this makes for a slightly looser fit. Another fix is to attach 1x2 to the bracket and level the top of the 1x2. There are also other variations.
-
there aren’t many walls in homes that are vertical and straight enough to generate bracket tips at the correct point in space without shimming of some kind. Our house walls weren’t built with the same precision that we expect from our roadbed!
Don’t ask me how I learned all this!
Why must I always learn from MY mistakes?
Fred W
You asked for it [am I being set up?[%-)]]… whatever… I like my opinions[8D].
A. Read Fred Wright’s answer again. [tup]
B. How good are you at putting up shelves? can you get a 2 bracket shelf level in all directions?
C. Can you carry that right round your layout area?
D. If you’re going to mess about with adjustments why not build a proper frame in the first place?
E. If you need to you can make a frame that is C shaped instead of H or inverted U shape and put the upright of the C against the wall.
F. What is your wall made of? Most walls have several components…
- bricks and mortar
- blocks (of various densities) and mortar
- wood, bricks and mortar (Noggin walls in UK)
- wood and blocks
- wood and wood
- wood and lathe and plaster
- wood and plaster (or oher) board
- any of the above plus dry wall
- Some have yeuk stuff like asbestos sheet lurking in them or asbestos based
insulation…You DO NOT want to disturb this. - Others have other insulation mediums or assorted crud left (hidden) by previous
people working on the wall. - Then there’s stone…
Those are some that I can think of…
Oh yes, quite a few have big chunks of air lurking in various parts.[}:)]… some where they’re meant to be.
Then there’s filled in door/window spaces in some walls.[}:)]
Some walls are a combination of more than one of the above…
Most rooms will have at least two of the above…
Exterior (load bearing) walls will be solid while others may be all sorts of things.
G. Most walls will have been plastered… this may be a skim or anything up to an inch thick… sometimes more… sometimes in several (different) layers[banghead]. (It’s like archeology if it has to come off… or falls off… maybe with the encouragement of the weight of a shelf
Is the space shuttle ready yet? [:D]
Huh? Is that response to my time and effort? You keep asking “what if ?” questions. Do you build? Are you ever going to?
I’m gone.
It was just a joke, no offense…
Electrolove,
Consider the source. Quite frankly I am becoming tired of certain people on this forum who reply to topics with the attitude of “and if you do it in a way differently from me you’re an IDIOT”. This was just the case in a thread concerning suitcase connectors. Do I think I have all of the perfect answers? Far from it. I simply respond from my own experiences which are then presented as suggestions with every consideration given to my fellow modelers. I thought that was what this forum was all about. Most of the “you’re a FOOL if you do it that way” crowd always seem to lash out at others but have nothing noteworthy to show as an example of their “expertise”. Am I bashing other people’s work? Absolutely not. But if someone is going to insult my methods, they should be able to produce evidence of their own superior modeling skills through photographs or published manuscripts.
Bottom line - whatever system you use - if it makes you happy and lives up to your expectations, then it was THE right choice. That approach obviously works for the self-appointed “experts”.
Best of luck with your modeling!!
David, if I may interject, I am quite sure that Electro was giving you a big compliment. He was, if I read him correctly, expressing admiration for your complex (like the space shuttle) and comprehensive answer. I believe the big smile at the end of his reply to you was meant to be taken as a sign of humour as well as happiness.
Respectfully,
-Crandell
I just found a nice page about this subject. Look at these pictures…
http://home.insightbb.com/~mopac/Benchwork.html
Startpage:
http://home.insightbb.com/~mopac/Index.html
To all:
When I posted my cautions about using shelf brackets and tracks - it was just that, cautions. I did not mean not to use wall mounts. I will likely use them again myself because stabilizing a lightweight, narrow shelf against the wall on legs is not a trivial task either. Especially if you want the legs set in from the edge to avoid kicking them like I do.
Because most walls are not straight enough or consistently vertical enough, you will need a system of adjustment. The likelihood of just being able to set your framework directly on the bracket and have it straight, level, and true is pretty slim - at least in the houses I have lived in. My system of adjustment (and I favor the older single slot brackets because of ease of mounting to them, but either will work) is to mount a 1x2 vertically to the bracket. I also run a front rail made up of an L girder with the flange on the bottom turned towards the wall. This is attached to the ends of the 1x2s. The 1x2s can be adjusted for length (the wall curves towards/away from the aisle) and height (adust the mounting to the brackets and/or sand the top edge of the 1x2 to get them level). The front rail links the whole assembly together so the brackets mutually support each other and are prevented from rotating around the vertical axis.
At this point, the 1x2s can serve as joists in an open grid configuration with risers, or you can set your framed foam or plywood layout on top. If you anticipate moving or are building modules, I would separately frame the sections to set on top of the joists. That way you simply lift the section off the shelving section, and the section remains self-supporting and rigid for transport.
Last reminder - make sure you are mounting the shelf track to something substantial like wall studs. Wallboard is not going to work even with the expanding fastners. My present house has plaster and lathe walls, and I’m renting, so wall mount is out of the question. But when possible,
I built a shelf layout using the heavy duty brackets. I ran into the sloping bracket problem right away, the brackets sloped back toward the wall at an alarming angle. I wonder whose bright idea it was to design them that way? At any rate, to fix that and to make sure things were level in both dimensions, I bolted small wooden risers to the brackets and then fastened L girders to the brackets. The end result is level and quite sturdy.
george
David Foster… oh my God… I think you couldn’t be more negative if you tried. I do think you overlooked a few more things to concern oneself with if using shelf brackets.
- Mounting springs or shock absorbers if building in earthquake prone areas.
- Allowing for the rotation of the earth, we don’t want things falling from our layouts.
- What color is the sky in your world?
- When does your spaceship return you to your origins?
All good food for thought…Thanks