Tech. advancements in Modeling

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

There has been some discussion on new tech. coming into play with modeling such as "dead rail " . Not sure how long before that hits the markets BUT one thing in my industry has changed the way we do buisness. Our Audio Visual guys do not STOCK equipment anymore because that industry is changing so rapidly that if the new product sits on the shelf even for a short time it is out of date and not sellable anymore.

I have been pondering on whether to buy DCC,sound equiped trains or wait until the new dead rail stuff comes out.

Curious how you other modelers approach this challenge ? How has the ever changing tech. changed the way manufactures,LHS conduct their buisness ?

Look forward to your responses.

YGW

2

If you just have to the latest ‘Bleeding Edge’ toys, go for it. Just remember; none of the existing ‘Dead Rail’ systems are compatible with each other, or with DCC systems. Remember all of the early command control systems that were not compaible? I would like to see decoders that can be configured for wireless/DCC/DC - The problem is that all of the wireless systems each use a different protocol. I am sure wireless/battery systems will be the standard in the future, but they need to set some standards.

3

I’m not sure that this qualitifes as new technology. More like existing technology being used for trains.

What this really does is replace the rail as the command signal carrier with a radio wave as the command signal carrier. The power source can continue to be the rails or it can be a battery. (or live steam or gas motor or whatever). Some kind of unit is required in the engine to receive the signals sent, then respond - first identifying if the signal is for it and second what to do if it is.

The advantage is that the system can work with batteries instead of the track as the power source thus reducing wiring and track cleaning problems. Of course if you’re using the track to activate a signalling system you lose part or all of this advantage.

The first disadvantage is you have all these batteries to fool with - recharging for the next operating session, swapping out if they run dead during a session, replacing the batteries, finding a place to haul them around with the engine, etc.

The second disadvantage is fitting a receiving unit in the engine making sure that the radio signal can get to it - a possible problem with metal engines/tenders.

The third disadvantage is the lack of standards. Some of these piggy back on DCC and others don’t. But there is no standard for the radio part. So you won’t find Bachmann, Atlas, etc. producing these factory installed. And if the system you pick goes out of business, you’re out of luck.

Fourth, with battery power, a derailled locomotive will continue to run through the scenery, right over the edge of the layout, etc.

Since the in locomotive part has to do more, it will probably be more expensive than a straight DCC decoder.

Is this the wave of the future? Probably not. It doesn’t really introduce any new capability. For an outdoor layout with track cleaning, voltage drop, and safety issues, it may be a goo

4

I hope this doesn’t devolve into a DCC vs DR shootout. That’s not what I thought the question was, although that’s the example given.

To deal with it, I’d say if you want trains that run as transparently for the end user with DR as currently with DCC, it’ll be awhile. The lack of standards is one concern. But that feeds into the wider question of consumer expectations and acceptance.

Those in DR now accept any shortcomings because they’re enthusiasts. But that won’t work with the big companies. They need product that lots of people want to buy due to the required economies of scale. Even once the public wants it, then it has to be affordable. Then it has to meet the expectations of most users, which is wnat keeps people coming back and spreading the word of the cool stuff it does.

That’s how DCC is supplanting DC. DCC is not “better” than DC, it simply meets the needs of more consumers with changing tastes. For those who DC suits needs, there’s really no need for DCC. We’ve seen that scenario play out here before…[;)]

So no need to beat a dead horse.

DR’s main issue besides standards is battery technology. It’s been a constant lag on many developments in technology, but has been gaining ground in recent years, although nothing like the pace of miniaturization of circuits. So improvements there could suddenly create more demand, as could introduction of affordable mass market DR locos. But we’re still waiting on those. I’d go ahead and make some commitment to DCC if it were me, as it’s not going anywhere any more than DC is. We know DCC is affordable, as is DC, while even if DR gets desire and technology right, demand will drive whether it becomes perceived as affordable or not.

One area of low hanging fruit that could be next are cameras – internet-enabled cameras in all kind of model rail products. Locos – standard equipment. Passenger cars and cabooses – definitely optional. Structures -

5

When I purchased an NCE DCC powerCab, I ordered it thru the LHS. She said she didn’t stock them because new versions came out and nobody wanted the version she had in stock.

I’ve learned I can order anything thru the LHS. I’d prefer to give them my business.

6

The question is missed in part. It is a question of rapidly changing tech. affecting decesions to buy because the new stuff becomes outdated so fast.

7

Simply put I don’t since I never was one to rush out and buy the latest high tech toy.

At my age I doubt if I will use anything newer then my MRC Tech 6 so I can run my DC,DCC or DCC/Sound engines.

How has the ever changing tech. changed the way manufactures,LHS conduct their buisness ?

Very carefully I suspect…One thing they will do is make sure there is a market for the newest technical gizmo(s).

As a side note and as a off topic example.

When Sony release the PlayStation 4 the rush to replace the PS3 with the PS4 didn’t happen so,new games for the PS3 as well as the PS4 is currently being released…Even with that said the PS2 is still popular even though its considered a antique system by some.

Bringing it together and back to topic.

Same for our models that come DCC and DCC/Sound they will be around until another control system is perfected and even at that both DC and DCC will still be used.

.

8

You have been a member of this forum since April 2007. Have you been “pondering” this decision for 8 years? At this rate of decision making you’ll never get to the point of running trains so the question is moot.

There is always going to be some next great thing that obsoletes what you already have. If you’re afraid of that, you’ll wait forever and never accomplish anything.

9

The new Hi Tech stuff is just that, “New Hi Tech Stuff”. The old way of doing things is totally gone for the young, they don’t care about anything old. I was in communications and electronics for 50 years and watched everything old go away, faster with every new product.

Teens today don’t care about anything that breaks, wears out or just out of style because they toss it and get something newer or better in their eyes than the old stuff. That’s tough on our hobby and the LHS.

It’s very sad to watch old stuff go away, I’m old and I’m going away too. Do your thing with the Greatest Hobby in the World, if it’s the new Hi Tech stuff that turns you on then more power to you. Myself I’m very happy with what I have.

I have a few DCC operated locomotives but 80% of my fleet is DC, I run dual mode with a toggle switch. I love the chuff of a Southern Pacific Articulated locomotive slowly pulling my grades.

10

If you buy DCC ready, you will be fine and able to do DC,DCC and they are easily convertable to dead rail and the company that is doing Bachmann’s radio control is doing a plug-n-play that will fit an 8 pin plug that will run off the rails with optional dead rail.

11

YGW,
In my club back in the mid-1990’s, I used to be anti-DCC. My main reason was that DC will forever be possible (someone will always make toggles, and we had been around for almost 60 years by then), and that if the DCC company we chose went belly-up, then we’d all be out of luck. Then I learned that DCC wasn’t just the latest control system like Dynatrol or C/MRI, that it was instead an NMRA Standard (not even an RP) produced by several strong companies. At worst, all we’d have to do is swap out the “brain” and replace all the throttles, and we’d be good to go with another brand (did you know that DCC boosters are cross-compatible?). At that point, I became pro-DCC.

Our club chose Digitrax in 1999, and have used it ever since. I even had Digitrax on my own 25x50’ layout for 10 years, and I do not regret the choice. DCC itself has been around for some 25 years. It’s not a new technology, nor is it a “flash in the pan” or some kind of fad. It’s here, and here it’s going to stay. Even when more advanced control systems have been released to market (MTH’s DCS, Ring Engineering’s RailPro), they’ve yet to make a serious dent in DCC’s market share. Why? Because DCC is an NMRA Standard and has something like 50%+ of the HO market.

To specifically answer your question, manufacturers don’t hesitate to put new tech. in their products (the only thing that stops them are lawsuits). BLI started the on-board factory installed sound revolution, and everyone else jumped onboard, too. What they’ll do is improve their current designs, put in the latest tech., and sell it. Hobby shops generally don’t want to get caught with any extra inventory of anything (DCC tech., locos, cars, detail parts, etc.), so they usually don’t have issues with old tech. hanging around the shop because they don’t carry tons of

12

Carl

I run DC, Have purchased DCC but not installed yet. Just moved and need to build a new train room…But recently there has been “rumblings” of dead rail which frankly there are aspects of what I am hearing appeals to me. There in is the dilema. Building a new layout and which direction to move. Install DCC or keep running DC and then switch to dead rail or go dcc and then go dead rail. It seems that dead rail will be much more realistic operations because the fuel (battery) is limited just like real fuel is limited and planned refueling will have to be considered. There are many things that I can see dead rail being very appealing. Back to my orginial post I still wonder about the faster pace of change. In my youth tech. stayed teh same for decades. Now it changes every month it seems.

Thanks

YGW

13

Seeing that you have already purchased a DCC system, unless you are looking at returning an unopened package for a full refund, I suggest you install it and enjoy it while we watch what happens with dead rail. You may find that you enjoy it enough to stick with it, or it may frustrate you to the point that going dead rail becomes an easy choice for you. Maybe dead rail doesn’t take off and ultimately goes away (doubt it) and then you wouldn’t be “behind” in your move to DCC.

14

Ah… now I get it.

Take a look at the Tam Valley wireless DCC system. They provide a radio transmitter and receiver to carry the signal and batteries for power - otherwise it’s still DCC. The beauty of the system is that you can convert one loco at a time to wireless and continue to run vanilla DCC on the rest.

The only issues are space for the receiver and batteries and battery life. If you’re running steam, the tender will come in handy. For diesels, a permanently MUed dummy could be used for the excess baggage. I’ve seen 40 minutes mentioned as battery life for a sound equiped locomotive.

http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/deadrailsystem.html

15

YGW,
Yes, real fuel is limited, but not that limited. [swg] For example, a typical modern diesel (w/ 5000 gal. tank) may go 1000 miles (on average) between fuelings. To convert that to HO scale, a battery powered model of such an engine would have to travel around 60,000 actual feet before needing recharging. At 60 scale MPH, that would take about 16 hours of constant running. I don’t think a battery is going to match that, and one problem is that we have that the real RR’s don’t is that our locos cannot be towed due to our worm drives (except the old Key “coasting” drive).

One could get the same action from DCC (or DC for that matter) just be keeping records and making sure your locos get set out at the fuel rack when they should.

My biggest issue with DR systems is battery life. Not just for the length of using it when new and charged, but how long does it last overall? For example, I have 15-year-old DCC decoders that still work just fine. Comparitively, I’ve had a digital camera since 2004, and have always purchased ones that use AA NiMH batteries. I’m now on my 3rd set of AA’s in 11 years, so how long would loco batteries last? How often would loco batteries need replaced because they won’t hold a charge any longer? Would I have to constantly be buying new batteries? Because with 50-some engines, even with better batteries that last 10 years, would mean that I’ve have to buy 5 new batteries every year just to keep even.

Paul A. Cutler III

16

Carl "Ah… now I get it.

Take a look at the Tam Valley wireless DCC system. They provide a radio transmitter and receiver to carry the signal and batteries for power - otherwise it’s still DCC. The beauty of the system is that you can convert one loco at a time to wireless and continue to run vanilla DCC on the rest.

The only issues are space for the receiver and batteries and battery life. If you’re running steam, the tender will come in handy. For diesels, a permanently MUed dummy could be used for the excess baggage. I’ve seen 40 minutes mentioned as battery life for a sound equiped locomotive.

http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/deadrailsystem.html "

Thanks for the response. I have added teh link to my favorites bar

YGW

17

Good questions… DR may be good for G Scale but,HO or N? I’m not sure its practical for group operation or club operation-occasional solo operation the batteries might do well.My thoughts on this is simple I railfan a lot and have used 5 sets of AA NiMH rechargable batteries over the last 12 years.I operate my ISL 2-3 hours daily so how long would a battery or batteries last?

At this point I don’t see DR replacing DCC or DC as the absolute replacement power for our locomotives.

Paul,I figured by now there would be a perfect replacement system for DCC and DC that would be all the rage. [swg] Come to think of it I don’t think I would want to see another round of XXX system vs. DCC or which XXX system is the best? topics [(-D]

18

Progress is never ending and ever accelerating. If you wait for the arrival of the new thing you see on the horizon you will never own anything.

Find something that fits your need and jump in. You will be happier.

19

I’m curious, what do you find objectively or subjectively better about dead rail over DCC? Because IMO the benifits of DR are a lack of electrified rails makes for easier (no) wiring. But on the flip side, DR requires engine maintnance (recharging) that DCC never will.

20

Brakie,
I agree with that! Another X vs. Y flame fest is not something to look forward to…tho’ it can be educational.

Paul A. Cutler III