Well i think your concern is well founded.I read an article in the nmra scale rails mag,about the number of contestants entering scratch built models at shows and conventions had dropped to an alarming rate.Time is allways the essence today most people don’t want to wait on anything let alone take the time to plan design and build a true scratch built model.All my buildings on my layout are laser cut wood kits,with a few older cambells and gloor craft kits,as close to scratch building as my skill has allowed me to progress.I have attempted scratch building with not so great results where buildings are concerned.Of all the people i know here in my area only a few that actually scratch build anything. I have allways hoped that someday I would have enough skill and confidence to start scratchbuilding but again with my limited amout of time that i have to devote to my layout,buy the time i get to that point there might not be anyone left here where I can go see how they solved a perticular problem. Some of the most spectacular layouts i have ever seen where heavily scratchbuilt and their beauty was in their difference to all the regular run of the mill layouts that all look the same just arranged differently.To those of you who use rtr hey it’s your layout,for those of you who scratchbuild i hope you continue to do so ,that why there’s someone with the ability to answer questions when someone like me gets to that point.
I was not aware that you could buy RTR layotu scenery, track and roadbed, and wiring systems? I thought all those had to be built. The things that you are discussing RTR are things like buildings and rolling stock. Now I do not want RTR buildings but Rolling Stock yes. I do not want to deal with the small crap. See the real work and the imagination work is of course not available RTR. As a modeler we all must do some of the same stuff. Maybe not make trees but do the scenery. Thats is not RTR. Making mountains and rocks Wiring the layout and the accessories like the snap or tortoise switches. All that is part of the fun work. after having to do all that stuff some of us do not want to deal with rolling stock building, Although I love to build a building or structure kit then paint it. I do sometimes get the RTR structure but I paint it if I can to make it look different. That is a rare purchase though. Basically there is not a big list of RTR stuff as opposed to the “have to build” list. You might be able to get the track with the ballast on it but you still must lay the track and wire it and add the switches. RTR does not mean faster operation, just less agravation of building something for some thats all.
As usual, I need to clarify some points on my post. I was referring to what I will call the traditional scale modeling scales. I mean; O-Scale, S-Scale and HO-Scale. I’m not an N-Scaler! However, it is my understanding that not much in rolling stock, has ever been available in kits for N. Nor am I a tinplater, so, I am not talking about the tin-plate crowd. As I read in the modeling press, not much of anything appears to be available in O-Scale or S-Scale, so scratch, kit-bash or kits are all there is. Therefore, in particular, my post is addressed towards HO scale.
Specifically, I see a trend towards more RTR rolling stock and pre-built structures. I see this trend effecting the availability of kits with a possible phase-out of simple to moderate complexity (LLP2K, Red Caboose, etc.) kits. My opinion is this trend is a bad direction the hobby is taking! If you RTRers could guarantee that these kits weren’t going to be phased-out, I’d say “Have-At-Her”! My buying kits is not effecting the RTRers. I can’t say the same, in reverse!
Yes, you can buy a complete layout, RTR. Few of us can afford one. Craftsman (wood, resin) kits will likely always be available as there is demand.
I have only been involved with Model RR’ing for a little better than a year. prior to this, I built styrene kits of aircraft, armor, and autos. I just recently bought a stack of P2K hoppers in kit form to save money. I could not believe the small parts, some of which were almost impossible to remove from the sprues withoug damage. My eyes and fingers don’t want these anymore, so I look for “deals” on E-bay and sales on the internet for RTR stuff, but I still build BB and MDC kits, and all my structures are kit form. Just finished 4 Snyder fuel cranes, but the first one didn’t come out as planned. I like to think I prefer kits, but sometimes my physical limitations get in the way.
With regard to the question of is the burgeoning of RTR hurting the classic model railroading hobbyist, I’d have to reply with a resounding yes.
Obvious, from the manufacturers’ standpoint, it is much better to offer limited production runs of a much more expensive item. The savings for them by using off-shore labor, lesser amounts of outside components and basic materials, little or no stocking, and reduced shipping, is a boon. They recognize through their latest sales that there is a small but well-to-do fraction of hobbyists that can support their manufacturing practices - at least short-term - more proffitably than selling hords of less expensive kits (requiring a larger business infrastructure) to hobbyists wanting to make smaller purchases of basic kits over than extended period.
Those who pay careful attention to what is in the pipeline for 2005 will already know that such historically classic modeler oriented companies as DPM and WS are about to start offering major RTR products lines. The former will have completely finished, superdetailed. weathered structures available, while WS will offer a series of modular layout sections needing only track and some of their foam products and pre-finished trees to complete. Even MR has lately included articles about commercially built layouts - little more than an extended, free ads for the builder.
Based on what I see in the way of poster’s responses, classic modelers appear to probably still outnumber exclusively RTRers 5 or even 10 to 1. But if the shift towards RTR continues, I’d say the hobby’s future viability is in serious question. While this hobby used to be about creativity and modeling skills, its future seems only to hold promise for those with fat wallets.
CNJ831
More new modelers will be attracted to the hobby through RTR and new modelers are what will allow this hobby to survive, in my opinion.
We’re all too focused on our own little niche and see increased offerings in other areas as some sort of threat. Mr. DeShane discusses a “possible phase-out of simple to moderate complexity…kits” and requests a guarantee from RTRs that this won’t happen. Certainly no modeler owes him anything because their purchasing preference differs from his. Frankly, when I buy an RTR boxcar, I don’t give a hoot how it affects anyone else’s modeling.
I can’t comment on rolling stock or loco kits because I prefer RTR, but I see absolutely no shortage or reduction in availability of structure kits. It appears that I have more choices now than ever in the past.
Lot’s of anecdotal claims and worry about “possible phase-outs.” If one needs assurances of some sort, perhaps it should be the manufacturer that provides it? Are there any real industry statistics indicating phasing out one offering in favor of another or is this just another “us-vs-them,” non-issue?
Wayne
It doesn’t matter to me if it’s a kit or RTR. If I like it, I’ll buy it.
I consider my self a builder I build because I like to But now that I am retired and on a very limited budget its a necessity My materials have changed some to I use more cardstock and balsa because I can’t afford some of the materials I use including windows. But no mater how you go at it Its still the greatest hobby in the world!!! Cox 47
Muddy creek, Saying you don’t give a “hoot” how (what you do) effects anyone else’s modeling, is certainly not going to win you too many friends in this hobby!
Also, I wasn’t really looking for anyone to guarrentee me anything! It was simply a statement that I believe RTR is affecting kits, but, kits are not affecting RTR.
Excuse me for talking about a subject that IS important to me! Now, if you’ll excuse me, the sky is falling!
We’re not talking anti-social behavior, here. We’re talking about buying model railroad items, a simple act that reflects personal interests in an aspect of modeling. I’ll say it again: when I buy an RTR boxcar, I don’t give a hoot how it affects anyone else’s modeling. Are you saying that I should give up purchasing what interests me because of some dubious argument that there will be fewer items offered that interest you? Or that I should just feel guilty about it? Sorry, I don’t think so.
I haven’t seen any concrete evidence my RTR boxcar has any noticible effect on your modeling. I’m not going to lose any sleep over the fact that you don’t like RTR and I’m certainly not changing my buying habits because of it any more than you should change because of my preferences.
I don’t buy into the us-vs-them issue that you do. There’s room for all in this hobby and manufacturers will accomodate the market place where there is demand.
Wayne
Muddycreek, I GIVE UP!! You have missconstrude what I have said and are attempting to turn me into a bad guy because I chose a topic you disagree with. I am tired of attempting to bring up what I think are interesting and thought provoking topics on this forum, only to have some curmudgeon attempt to make an *** out of me. I am starting to think there is a contingent on here who only want to get into fights and this is making this forum pretty boring!
I’m not interested in fighting with you or anyone else. I just disagree with the assumption that one person’s idea of model railroading is ruining anyone else’s future enjoyment of the hobby. I was just looking for tangible evidence why my purchasing a RTR boxcar signals the end of model railroading as we know it. I just haven’t seen it and no one here’s demonstrated it yet.
I see a peaceful co-existance as the future. Manufacturers will be happy to accomodate all.
Wayne (the curmudgeon?)
Does anybody cook? I enjoy it, and I enjoy it more when I have the time to do it right. I do main courses and vegetables, but I don’t do baked goods and I never make desserts. Yes, there’s a lot of pride in putting it on the table, too. But I also love to eat at a good restaurant.
I’m just pulling my old trains out of a 30-year slumber in the attic. I’m looking forward to all the new challenges - DCC, real scenery, knuckle couplers and a whole lot of restoration. I probably won’t scratch-build anything, at least not for a while, but I’m game for anything else. I’m sure I’ll find things I like doing, and things I don’t care for. But overall, I’m planning to enjoy it. And it wouldn’t surprise me if the sun comes up some morning and finds me still working in my shop.
I suppose that the longer I am in the hobby, the more I have distinctions as to what i am attracted to. I am a big fan of John Allen and have read the book about the G&D many many times. i think a key statement is at the end where it says he struck a happy medium between detailing and illusion. Something along that line.
I sort of took that to heart. If a person were to apply equal time to every area, you probably never would get done with a normal size layout. Of course this is alright. A layout is never done is it? However, I doubt there is anyone who doesn’t want to see decent progress.
To that extent, I am not about to sit there and weigh every car to ensure they are all the same weight. I am not going to spend an hour painting a figure to be placed in an area it is not going to be appreciated. I don’t detail the back of building that will never be seen. Even if I buy a craftsman kit that takes 6 weeks to put together, I am not spending time on areas not seen.
I am fine buying pre-painted figures, ready to run cars, Engines and so on. I do not buy pre-made buildings, I love doing fine detailing on the scenery. I think everyone finds a compromise in the hobby.
http://homepage.mac.com/cgwaldman/PhotoAlbum1.html
Cletus
The $25 gift certificate could have gone further if kits are bought instead of RTR. Let us examine what could be bought with that gift certificate, using MSRP.
Locomotives are any kind of out.
2 or 3 Athearn Blue Box, Accurail, MDC, Branchline Trains, Bowser, C&BT Shops, CM SHops, Intermountain, Grandt Line, Stewart Hobbies (most singles), or (if you can find two) Walthers kits, or Con-Cor
1 Branchline Trains kit, Athearn RTR, 1 MDC RTR, 1 Walthers RTR (some more expensive than $25), Atlas (only about half are less than $25), Red Caboose or Funaro & Camerlengo kit
Athearn Genesis, most Atlas, Intermountain, Kadee, and Trix are all out.
My point was that there are probably people who if they walk into a hobby shop and see manu kits (and associated prices) are more likely to become model railroaders than if the hobby shop has mainly RTR (and the associated prices).
Also, I checked the model aircraft section. The prices of most of the kits I saw were more in line with train kit prices.
I think the key is finding a balance. What do you enjoy spending time on? What would you rather not spend time on? We are at an interesting juncture in the hobby. RTR locomotives and cars are not what the RTR of the past were. When I first got in the hobby HO RTR seemed to be Brass (way to expensive even then) or lesser quality stuff (the old Life Like, Model Power etc). If you wanted decent running relatively inexpensive stuff you went with Athearn the RDC/Roundhouse kits. RTR was the equivalent of “junk.” Today that is not the case, although I think perceptions sometimes are what governs (how long did it take for people to realize stuff made in Japan wasn’t junk?).
We have accepted RTR track (snap track, manufactured turnouts and flextrack when compared to handlaying is RTR) and controls (remember the numerous articles that used to be in the mags concerning building your own transistor throtte?). We’ve also accepted RTR DCC and other electronics (remember Wescotts Twin T detectors?
Yes, I enjoy building kits and would prefer that everything be kits. I’m sure that there are people that would prefer everything be RTR. Neither view is, I think, entirely realistic. As much as I enjoy building benchwork (I really do) I realize that there are people that hate it. I am actually glad that there are manufacturers of benchwork “kits” and that foam has made a big showing. I also actually enjoy wiring and making electronic things (like some of the transistor throttles) but am glad that lots of this stuff can now be bought off the shelf. How many people would not be as into this hobby if these things weren’t available?
It would be interesting to see in a couple of years how many folks that entered this hobby by purchasing RTR equipment decided to weather and repaint their RTR. Then do some RTR bashing and then decided to try kits? Would be interesting!
Bottom line - the more folks that get into this hobby, the more products that will be available - at l
Muddycreek,
It’s interesting, some here say that RTR is the future. Even you proclaim it will attract new people and new people are the life of the future of the hobby. Manufacturers make decisions based on the market. RTR is better for the manufacturer as he is adding value to his product. The market being attracted to a product with value added is a very good thing from the manufacturer’s point of view. As simple as this explanation is, it explains one of the reasons kits are loosing ground to RTR.
Now, let me explain my position. I try not to take on a position that is not defensible and I enjoy discussions, if they can keep from flipping into personal attacks. You have bent things I have said and I don’t appreciate this.
To back my position, I have older Walther’s catalogs? I have talked to hobby shop owners. I look at what is offered at the various MRR websites and offered in the pages of the various model railroading publications. From these references, I feel my position is warranted, substantiated and is what I have based my argument on. It is not simply my opinions on possible phase-outs, based on anecdotal evidence, with dubious arguments, or with a lack of concrete evidence! Also backing my position are the majority of respondents to this post.
In the end, this is a small point in a large continuum and is inconsequential. The market will drive what happens within the hobby and us dinosaurs which still like to glue tab A into slot B, will be gone. However, we shall be taking our wisdom with us!
The whole point of a hobby is for enjoyment. It doesn"t make any diffenrence what you like. Do it however it gives you pleasure. You’re doing it to enjoy yourself. If you don’t enjoy whatever facet of any hobby yours is, don’t do it. The hell with what anyone else thinks. Just do whatever “YOU” enjoy.
[2c]
I am one who likes the entire hobby and tries everything at least
once. I really like to kitba***hings, it is what makes my world a
unique place. My layout is not like ANY other. And I plan on having
trains on my gravestone. I take my time and find new things to do
when it is cold or just too late at night when I want to spend time
with my wife. To all, be kind. JUST DO YOUR OWN THING !!!
[2c]
I think the solution tothe contraversy here is to look at two popular Icons. Baskin Robbins philosphy is “If everyone had the same tastes, we’d all like vanilla.” The industry has to cater to both the builder and rtr people. While some manufacturers are concentrating on rtr, others are expanding on kits. If you do not want to but the MDC or Athearn RTR, you still have Bowser and Branchline, who are continually adding to their line.
The other Icon is Ian Flemings James Bond. This character is fictional only because he is an expert at so many different skills, each of which would require daily full day practice to achieve that skill level. This is a hobby for most of us, meaning it is pursued only in our spare time. This also means that most of us have or develop skills in only limited phases of the hobby. The hobby has to accomodate these different skills and interests if it is to thrive. The person who likes to build structures and buy rtr trains should not belittle the train kit builder who uses prebuilt structures. If you guys get together, you could probably help each other.
John Allen was unique in his ability to build a beautiful layout all by himself. Most of the larger, more elaborate layouts you see in the pages of these magazines are built by a family or group of friends. The indivduals in these groups usually concentrate on certain tasks rather than having everybody doing everything and getting in each other’s way.