My thoughts are if you don’t like RTR don’t buy it.If you can’t find a kit for the building/car/ whatever then scratchbuild the damn thing if you don’t want RTR.
Not everybody wants to spend hours building a kit when they could be laying track or wireing it up to run trains or just simply run trains.
Human’s are a weird bunch of critters you know,we are all different in the way we do things or want things done.The last thing I would ever do,no make that the one thing I would never do is look down on someone for the way they enjoy this hobby,nor would I ever presume to tell them that my way is the only way.
One thing I’ve noticed in this thread, is a fair number of folks are glad to have RTR, because they no longer have to build everything from a kit. If the number of kits declines than it means they were not really that popular, just tolerated as the price of having a layout.
While I will always build kits and scratch build, I suspect that RTR is a large part of my future. This will enable me to have a bigger more complete layout, which I think is a good thing. I’m already planning a 500 sq ft layout to replace my current 200 sq ft layout. This for me is only possible because of RTR - cars, locos, track, controls, etc.
Enjoy
Paul
This is faulty thinking because the offering of kits is not based necessarily on how popular they may or may not be overall. If a manufacturer can sell a thousand RTR, limited production, items at 3x the price of a similar kit in less than a month, or twice as many kits over a much longer interval but with considerably more overhead costs for them, just which way do you think they will go with future production? Until recently, our hobby has always been based on longterm availability of a given item in kit form at lower prices…which was a disadvantage for the manufacturers. Now the shoe seems to be on the other foot and it will likely matter much less what sort of availability the hobbyist wants for a product. It is a plan that, if taken to the extreme, means in the short term bigger profits over shorter time spans for the manufacturers but at the same time will shrink the hobby by forcing out many of its longtime participants because of costs. I call this a lose/lose situation, not an advantage.
semi-OT:
And this is different from anything else in the modern business world, how? [V][8][}:)]
I could rant on and on about this topic, which seems to be more and more prevalent in business these days. I even have to argue hard once in a while with my wife about retirement investment strategy- think LONG-TERM for overall economic health.
back on-Topic:
Actually, the only “RTR” rolling stock I have is good 'ol Tyco and Bachman “toy train”-quality stuff. Some is left over from my teenage-layout, while others have been acquired on eBay more recently as a compromise between having enough variety for the layout, and having something cheap-enough to be handled by my 3-year-old co-engineer. [:)] I’m adding better trucks, Kadee couplers, and weighting them, which gives me some modelling fun for myself as well (q.v. below).
For the long-term, I’m tending towards a) shake-the-box quality, like Athearn or MDC, combined with b) judicious application of additional details. This is partly because of very limited time available for any hobby/relaxation activities- I can feel a sense of accomplishment in the two or three hours I might get per week to do model railroading activities, as opposed to craftsman-level kits that might take me a couple of weeks to finish a single car/structure. In addition, despite the appearance of my purchases in the past month, I’m not made out of money, and they are an economical way to get good variety. [;)]
Building industries i rather have them in a kit because something can be done diffrent if it is not right and you can add to it just like the real thing does.
Besides, just how many “Built-Up” structures are going to be exactly right for whatever location you need them in? My guess would be somewhere around
N = diddly / squat + (# of sentient creatures in congress/parliament/etc.) [:D]
However, until my son is considerably older, and perhaps even until he’s in/past college (depending on how the afore-mentioned long-term investments go…), I suspect that I’ll be building/'bashing relatively inexpensive models, rather than expensive craftsman models.
The current layout, given its dual purpose of entertaining myself and a three-year-old, will likely have mostly Model Power and other similar inexpensive structures. Over the years, those that don’t get bashed by the three-year-old might get 'bashed into more-detailed structures, even if it is as simple as giving them a better paint job.
I’ve actually got some Cornerstone buildings (on sale) for my “dream” layout, partly because I’m hoping that the engine maintenance area is going to lend itself to modeling on its own now, followed by building the rest once Charles gets old-enough to use a hammer and drill without constant supervision. I figure that I can do some learning of better weathering/detailing techniques in the near future, I can use them to help validate the design as I build the maintenance facilities in the mid-term, and if someday I decide that they just aren’t nice-enough, I won’t feel too bad about replacing them with craftsman kits.
As noted previously, whatever satisfies you as a model railroader is sufficient.
As far as locomotives are concerned, I run the units I’ve painted and detailed on my home layout and factory painted stuff on the model railroad club layout. I also run off the power power pack on the home layout and DCC equipped locos on the club layout.
My experience has been that most RTR are not 3x more expensive than comparable kits usually it’s about $5 more, which is a big percent when we’re talking less than $10 for the kit, but not so big when we’re talking $25 or more for the kit.
Second I’m talking about the number of kits sold. If 1 million kits were sold in 1990; 800,000 in 2000; 600,000 in 2010 (note: I don’t know what the actual numbers are - I’m illustrating a point) while RTR is 200,000 in 1990; 400,000 in 2000; and 600,000 in 2010, then obviously a lot of people are happy
Let me, if I may! I prefer RTR, only because my patience level is low and my mess up ratio high. I also don’t have good hand-eye coordination and own very few tools. I don’t want to spend 30-75 dollars for a kit only to make a mistake and ruin the whole thing. That is only a fear and has never happened, but I also don’t want it to happen. I also have 3 kids who enjoy the trains with me, but they only want to see them run, not help build a building. Some issues might be resolved by switching to a bigger scale, but right now all I have space for is N. Just my view.
hob·by n. An activity or interest pursued outside one’s regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.
That says it all in my book. There’s no right or wrong way to approach a hobby, and there certainly isn’t a better or “preferred” method. That’s what makes it what it is. Everyone shares a common interest…trains. Else this would be the model boating or radio controlled cars forums. Whether you spent $500 or $5000, it makes no diffence.
There are hobbyists who have a love for trains, but can’t afford or don’t have the space for something they want. There are those who want nothing more than a detailed layout, but simply don’t have the skills or tools needed to do it. Does that somehow make the RTR crowd lesser enthusiasts? Certainly not.
[quote]
QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by IRONROOSTER
My experience has been that most RTR are not 3x more expensive than comparable kits usually it’s about $5 more, which is a big percent when we’re talking less than $10 for the kit, but not so big when we’re talking $25 or more for the kit.
Second I’m talking about the number of kits sold. If 1 million kits were sold in 1990; 800,000 in 2000; 600,000 in 2010 (note: I don’t know what the actual numbers are - I’m illustrating a point) while RTR is 200,000 in 1990; 400,000 in 2000; and 600,000 in 2010, then obviously a lot of people are happy to get out of the kit building part of this hobby (Note I said if, but this does seem to be what everyone thinks is happening).
Third most manufacturers make what sells. You seem to be arguing against yourself here saying that more RTR is made because that’s what people buy, but that has nothing to do with the number of kits made. I think what matters is what people buy not what’s available.
Fourth, you seem to be saying that folks who like RTR should give that up in favor of kits, because otherwise the manufacturers will stop making kits, because they don’t sell enough, and this is needed because without kits people will leave the hobby. Well a lot of the kits are pretty expensive, so you must be thinking of Athearn here. Frankly if the interest in low cost kits is so small that no one makes them anymore, then that means that the number of people who leave the hobby will be very small. I don’t think the low cost kit market is that small. but we’ll see. I do agree that it would be sad for someone to not enjoy this hobby because they can no longer afford it.
So where are we? Well the amount of RTR seems to be going up while the amount of kits seems to be going down (at least that is the majority opinion in this thread.). Sounds to me like a lot of people are happy to get out of the kit building part of the hobby or at least reduce it. This means that kit
With regard to your first point I can only say that where I live if an item is available in both kit and RTR, the price at least doubles for the latter. Most of the more expensive items aren’t even offered as kits, they’re only RTR.
As you even admit, the “sales” figures you use to illustrate your point are pure speculation and not based on anything factual. As such they can not possibly demonstrate anything in the actual state of the hobby. While more and more items are being offered RTR it does not necessarily mean that demand is rapidly growing…simply that this is the manufacturers’ new business plan, common to just about all of today’s manufacturing areas (get rid of your product as quickly as possible and cut overhead to nil). I have seen nothing anywhere to suggest that RTR is of great popularity across the board. A handful of posts on this board reflects absolutely nothing as to the desires of the hobby as a whole…it’s simply not statistically significant. Now if MR ran a poll of its entire readship, that would have meaning, but we have nothing of the sort to refer to.
Yes, manufacturers make what will sell. But today it is done on such a limited run basis it is possible (after a little market research) to sell 100% of any item immediately. It is not a matter of popularity, it’s one of buy it right now or never see it again. And as the manufacturers progressively turn to higher priced RTR-only you will most certainly see over time not a small fraction of modelers withdrawn from the hobby because of spiraling prices but rather a majority. Our hobby is totally dominated by guys over 50. Take away what they enjoyed at reasonable prices for years in the hobby and the hobby itself will vannish.
No, I don’t want folks that would rather have RTR to give up on them and go to kits. I want to see a curtailment of the manufacturers forcing RTR products on us at rediculous prices when the same item could be so
It is worth noting that I do not regard the current situation in the hobby, where RTR is slowly forcing out kit availability, as part of a manufacturers’ “conspiracy”. It is real and, unfortunately, what we see happening as a standard business model or practice today in many areas far removed from our hobby: to sell the product at the greatest profit margin with the least number of units while curtailing every possible overhead cost (in our case much of which comes from maintaining and handling/shipping a stock of unsold items/kits). Even the simplest business math will demonstrate that there is far, far more profit to be gained for a given company in selling an expensive RTR item over a kit offered at half the list price or less.
And, no, quite honestly I do not consider a person who has invested absol
It is worth noting that I do not regard the current situation in the hobby, where RTR is slowly forcing out kit availability, as part of a manufacturers’ “conspiracy”. It is real and, unfortunately, what we see happening as a standard business model or practice today in many areas far removed from our hobby: to sell the product at the greatest profit margin with the least number of units while curtailing every possible overhead cost (in our case much of which comes from maintaining and handling/shipping a stock of unsold items/kits). Even the simplest business math will demonstrate that there is far, far more profit to be gained for a given company in selling an expensive RTR item over a kit offered at half the list price or less.
I think it fair to say that there are model railroaders and miniature railroaders (for lack of a better name). If you didn’t take the pieces from the box and assemble them to make a completed unit, how can you consider this to be modeling?
What I am having the hardest time understanding is what would attract people to this hobby, if they didn’t come from and enjoy a modeling back ground. I have modeled practically all of my life. It’s building the models that interests me! Even if I got much more into operations, I would still love the modeling! Some of you seem to hate modeling and I just don’t get it! However, I am beginning to understand I am a dinosaur! I also understand this hobby’s direction will be determined by the market and there ain’t much I can do about it!
A lot of people are attracted to the creation and operation of a model railroad. These folks are able to be railroad modelers without the need to be a boxcar modeler or a locomotive modeler. They see no need to create from scratch each element of their railroad, cars, locos, etc any more than a kit-builder sees the need to cast every wheel and truck, brake wheel etc. In both cases, the total equal the sums of their parts.
Sorry, I stil don’t agreee that only one faction owns the title of Model Railroader.
This is getting old. I have 2 sets of Campbell steam service boxes still in the box (20 years). I’m still trying to paint and assemble my Heljan roundhouse(18 years). I have numerous craftsman car kits bought on sale more than 20 years ago that I simply don’t have the expertise to assemble (yet). Most of my cars are Athearn that I only screwed the trucks on. If I looked longer I could probably find stuff I’ve had longer but put away for future use and forgot about. Does screwing on Athearn trucks make me a kit modeler? I don’t think so. When I put those Campbell kits together and finish my roundhouse and the Suydam roundhouse I soldered up over 15 years ago and put the roof on, then maybe I can say “MODEL RAILROADER AT LAST”. Do the ready to run people have an influence on the future of our hobby? Only if we modelers who enjoy and will enjoy (in the future) putting together kits and keep on buying them. If we don’t buy kits, the manufacturing companies will cease to make them. Then we’ll all have the same models and we will all have to learn how to kit-bash, won’t we. Perhaps I’ve missed some point that DeSchane is trying to arrive at even after reading all the posts. RTR will not be the bane of this wonderful hobby. It might even get some of them to want to be more of a modeler. Enough of my ranting. It’s a new year and we all need to have fun in any endeavor we pursue.
Archie
I thought I had made my point crystal clear! My point is; I feel there is a change in the hobby, the change is more people are preferring RTR over kits! MY OPINION of this change is that it’s not good!
I started this thread and think all of my posts have been written in a fair and forthright manner. The idea has been to spark interesting conversation. We all have, and are entitled to our own opinions. Something I see here, which I think a few need to work on (including myself) is when an opposing view is expressed we become overly aggressive and defensive in our responses. This is easier to do here on the internet, because most do not use their real names and for the most part we are incognito!
In the end, this is only a hobby! To think that we deserves accolades and special dispensation because of our vast knowledge about a hobby seems miss-guided and to be making ourselves out to something beyond what we are, to me. Again, this is only my opinion!