The Most "American" of All Locomotives

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
21

True, there aren’t many options for obtaining good 19th century HO Americans. But don’t despair. As others note, you can always find an old Mantua “General” on eBay. A loose rendition of a 1870s rebuild of a 1850s engine, it isn’t an authentic representation of either era. Still, as Thom Radice’s work shows, it can be made into an acceptable stand-in for Civil War locomotives. With more effort it can be even better: look in the photo and files on the Yahoo Civil War Railroads site (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Civil_War_RRs/) for ideas. Also, BTS has announced that it plans to bring out a more accurate boiler for this model.

The Bachmann models of the Centennial CP and UP 1860s engines that are still on the market are another possibility. If better proportioned than the General, they are cruder mechanically and don’t run too well. Then there are the PFM and Balboa brass models of the Centennial CP and UP 4-4-0s. Though rarer and often a bit more expensive, they are good representations of their 1860s prototypes and can be made to run fairly well. Finally, the best looking model of a mid-nineteenth century locomotive, the Gem Wm. Crooks, is still another possibility. One is on auction online this very week.

Old AHM/IHC models of the V&T Reno represent a slightly later 1870s prototype. They run fairly well (though not on code 70 or smaller rail due to dee

22

Unfortunately, the Aristo-Craft models have a too-high incidence of zinc pest or rot. On more than a few of these, the impurities in the die cast material has caused it to disintegrate and crumble over time. Zinc rot is not unknown in other brands - I have a pre-war Lionel loco with crumbling driver flanges - but the percentage is much, much smaller than Aristo-Craft. That said, if you come across an Aristo-Craft nowadays with no rot, chances are it will remain that way.

The other flaw with the Aristo-Craft was that the motor and gearing was more rudimentary than most. And being inexpensive to begin with, very few got remotored and regeared because the cost of doing so was more than the model was worth.

A well-done tender drive is beautiful in these tiny models. A Locodoc kit in an FED HOn3 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 makes it a very good performer. The drive shaft going from tender to cab in the remotor kit becomes a thin piece of wire. The locomotive can have more weight, and the weight be properly balanced, when the motor is in the tender instead of sticking out the back of the cab - all very important to making a 4-4-0 perform well. With the motor in the tender, it now has just enough weight to pick up power properly.

just my experiences

Fred W <

23

If you are willing to “forgive” the track gauge, OO running on HO track works for the 1860-1870 time period. The ill running IHC superstructure can be mated with the MDC chassis to make a typical 4-4-0.

OO scale people made from shortened Preiser 1/72 people, the guy on the tender is a Langley true OO scale man. The little guy on the running board is HO. Yes, there is that much difference in 15%. That is a merged IHC/MDC 4-4-0. The 66" HO drivers become a typical OO scale 58 inchers. There is a whole lot of stuff in oversize HO and real OO scale that can be used. It is much easier to model in 4mm versus 3.5mm.

I once had webpages describing OO/HO in the 1870’s but never reloaded them due to lack of interest. Now I am getting a handle on my health I will probably go in this direction.

Harold

Oh, yeah, the Mantua Rodgers is a Sn3-1/2 model of a Southern Pacific Ten-Wheeler. There are plans in Model Railroader awhile back

24

Here is the webpage for the IHC/MDC 4-4-0 merge

http://www.darksidemodeler.com/4-4-0_merge/

and the “Why” for modeling the 1870’s in OO/HO at:

http://www.darksidemodeler.com/1870_why/

Thank you if you visit

Harold

25

With some work, a Bachmann 4-4-0 can be made into a nice runner. All the new ones really need are additional pickups on the tender (easy). I have an older one with a tender-mounted pancake motor, and after a motor replacement, Intermountain 28" metal wheels on the tender, and more tender pickups, it’s a pretty nice running model.[:D] The newer ones have a 5-pole skewed motor, which should be at least OK.

If you don’t mind a slightly larger than HO 4-4-0, the IHCs look pretty good (don’t know about the drive), and the AHM/Rivarossis are very nice with a little bit of the usual Rivarossi tweaking.

Or you can get a Mantua General, which can make a pretty decent model.

And then there’s brass, but that’s usually expensive.

26

I think this one looks darned good:

http://cgi.ebay.com/GEM-St-P-P-ST-PAUL-PACIFIC-GN-WILLIAM-CROOKS-4-4-0_W0QQitemZ400079130516QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item5d26930f94

27

From the numerous replies to my post I gather that there is not only a little interest in having a well built HO scale 4-4-0 of the 1860 - 1880 area in the market. After all, these locos played an important role in the building of the US. I wonder how much longer it will take before the likes of MTH or BLI take up the challenge and release a state-of-the-art Civil War time 4-4-0 into the market. Why not as a set, commemorating the Golden Spike event? I bet it would find a lot of interest - even outside of the world of model railroading.

Buying a used brass loco is unfortunately out of question for me, as returning it is close to impossible for reasons of customs clearing. So I will most likely have to live with those Bachmann “things” and try to beef them up a little.

28

I wouldn’t jump to any conclusions regarding the popularity of, or potential demand for, a new Civil War Era 4-4-0, Ulrich. Let me point out some hobby history that bears on this and similar 19th century HO non-brass models.

Discounting the brass and zamac models from Mantua’s early Master Model Builder’s Series line, the Mantua General was the first of the mid to late 19th century HO models to appear that remained in production up until recent times. It’s sales were spurred directly by the appearance of the Walt Disney film “The Great Locomotive Chase” (circa 1956) in an era of fads created by Disney movies and TV shows in the U.S.

About a decade later great interest in Mantua’s 4-4-0 arose again surrounding the centenial of the American Civil War, when many specialty trains and cars of that era and later were issued by Mantua, AHM, Aristo, et al. This interest was further bolsted just a few years later by the centenial of the Driving of the Golden Spike. Were it not for these historical RR events, it is unlikely that general hobbyist interest in the period would have ever resulted in the U.S. production of such engines, outside of perhaps brass models.

Without knowledge of the hobby’s history it is very easy to read into events situations, or a demand, that simply does not actually exist. I’d speculate that the wait for the modern issuance of a quality, mass market, Civil War Era, 4-4-0 is likely to be a long one. [;)]

CNJ831

29

A few thoughs:

As a person very interested in US history and trains, I have studied this period and am aware of the models offered, past and present. BUT, since I am not a “collector” and contain my model purchases to items that fit the theme of my layout, it is unlikely I would perchase some new improved version of a loco from this period. I think you might find this to me true of a number of modelers.

Glad to see Harold ring in on this, he has done great work in modeling this era.

As to why people buy what they buy, or how their interests develope/shift, think about this - sure, the era in question was the foundation of US railroading, just as the Model T was the foundation of the auto industry, BUT:

What’s more popular? Model T’s or 1957 Corvette’s?

I may be missing something, but the latest versions from Bachmann don’t seem that bad to me.

And, I do have one such piece of “nostailga”, a recent production (10 year old) Mantua General recieved as a gift. It runs and pulls well for its small size and design.

We can’t get the BLI’s of the world to make a decent Atlantic, Pacific or modern 10 Wheeler. What makes anyone thing they would make an 1860’s 4-4-0?

Sheldon

30

Every time there is a query about nineteenth century railroading the ten guys interested in that era chime in. There is no commercial viability for this era, there AIN’T enough of us guys.

Most of the models have to be larger for the toy train people that inhabit the hobby, the majority. Most will say, “Why do we need another 4-4-0, I already have one to run on my Giggle and HeeHaw”. The bulk of the people in the hobby are interested in running their trains on their platform. As my brother observed: “If model trains were a branch of military modeling, the practitioners would be playing with toy soldiers in a sandbox”.

Bitter as that sounds that is the hobby.

Harold

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If military modeling were a branch of model railroading, the jeeps would move, the cannons would shoot, and you could buy the stuff at a local hobby shop.

Guys playing toy soldiers in the sandbox are doing things with the models. That’s what makes model railroading different - you develop a world with action, a world where you are a participant not an observer.

BTW I don’t have anything against the military modeling or other static modeling hobbies, but they really aren’t the same thing as most model railroading is practiced.

Getting back to the 4-4-0. I think the models that Bachmann has of the Ma&Pa would have more appeal. The Ma&Pa scrapped it’s last 4-4-0 in 1952 and a few years later it’s last 2-8-0’s, 4-6-0’s, and 0-6-0’s with slope back tender. All but one 2-8-0 were built in the early 1900’s before WWI and modernized shortly after WWI with electric headlights, etc… So if you run steam, any of these are correct as far as era, but especially so in the most popular era to model which is the 1950’s. More importantly, they look like they fit the era.

The balloon stackers, as cute as they are, don’t look like they fit even if the V&T did many manage to hang on long en

32

I tend to forget that the US model railroading market is not as big as I thought it is, given the size of the nation.

For me as a foreigner, there are a few things so very much “American”:

  • Hamburger and Hot Dogs

  • Coca Cola

  • Cadillacs

  • Pick-up trucks

  • John Wayne Western Movies

  • 4-4-0´s

  • Jeeps

  • Hershey Bar

  • Root Beer

  • Base Ball

  • Football

  • Cheerleaders

  • Weber BBQ´s etc.

I am really disappointed to see, that this, IMHO, important piece of US history, finds so little representation in our hobby.

33

Ulrich, While the US is much larger physicly than Germany, our population is only about 4 times that of Germany.

We still, and always will, have great, vast, uninhabited areas, and rural areas of sparse population.

And when it comes to railroading, our history is much more diverse and fragmented than that of ANY country in Euorpe. So, even assuming similar percentages of the population are modelers or railfans, the net result is fewer modelers or railfans per prototype rail line, era, region, etc.

We have a history of hundreds of railroads, with seperate management, goals, needs, resources, challenges, geography, etc.

Sure the big ones are popular and well known, and some small ones have recieved world wide fame and note also. But by and large each US railroad of note is a seperate case study all its own, similar to the history of railroads in your country. But multiply that by 4 (number of modolers/railfans) than divide it by 50 or 100. The “modelers per railroad” ratio is much lower in our country.

As for your list, well its fun, but many of those things are only on the radar of older Americans these days.

One other note, if I was to take an interest in this era of modeling, I have to agree with some others that it wou

34

Funny, when I think of Germany, Hamburg and Frankfurt specifically, I think of hamburgers and hot dogs. In fact, I’ve eaten a hamburger (Hessburger brand) in front of the Hamburg Rathaus and two frankfurters in the Frankfurt airport. Checked off two of life’s goals that trip!

Seems like one can never get a baked potato in a western Europe restaurant. Potatoes are alway served “French” fried except for the occasional boiled.

Also seems like there are a lot of “Bad” towns in western Germany. Oh, you say “Bad” (pronounced “baud”) means bath, as in Roman bath.

Love the railroads in Germany. One can ride a wide variety of trains, from Doodlebugs to the speedy ICE. And the railroad staff one meets is courteous and professional, leastwise to tourists.

Mark, sometimes said to look like a Bavarian (is that an insult?)

35

I have the feeling that the hobby of model railroading is much wider spread in German than in the US, relative to the size of the population. It is a very well accepted hobby, and even leading politicians “confess” to get their relaxation from “playing” with trains. Mainstream model railroading activities center around Deutsche Bahn (German Railway) or Deutsche Reichsbahn (formerly the East German Railway). Other than really exotic types, there is hardly a gap in the locomotive roster. If it weren´t for the prices of that stuff, Germany could be called a model railroader´s heaven… [:D]

In the US, I gather, railroads play only a very small role in public awareness and that may reflect into the hobby as well. Take out the German stuff in the Walther´s Reference book and it will be only half the volume!

So, how do I get a decent looking and running 4-4-0 ? Change the period to 1900 and buy the Bachmann Spectrum Ma&Pa 4-4-0? Btw, one would think that this loco has a smaller market potential than the “General” or the “Reno” etc.

36

Bachmann Spectrum is usually very careful not to duplicate anything already done when they look at new tooling. There are a few exceptions, like their PRR K-4 (the first Spectrum locomotive). Examples: Bachmann has not done another USRA 2-8-2 or 4-6-2. The Shay was made to be significantly different (larger prototype) than the MDC/Roundhouse version.

Making yet another General or Reno would not be financially smart as existing models would drag the price down. And the holder of the existing tooling could launch another production run at any time, and undercut Bachmann’s price since the tooling is paid for.

I agree with Harold M. At best, most modelers that have a passing interest in steam might be persuaded to buy one 19th Century model - and that would mainly for display or running around a loop with some suitable cars. They are not going to pay the $300 needed to produce an excellent 4-4-0. Only those few of us who model early rail will buy more than one.

A telling statistic is PSC/MMI’s attempt to get an HOn3 4-4-0 off the ground. To date, they haven’t gotten 150 pre-orders, and they barely hit that number in On3/On30. Realistically, my guess is that you would be in deep trouble if you produced more than 300 1880s 4-4-0s in standard gauge at $300 - and that price point won’t work for that small a batch. That’s all it would take to saturate the market. The same number (or even less) would apply to a Civil War era model. Remember, like it or not, there are thousands of Bachmann, IHC, and Mantua 4-4-0s that despite their issues, aren’t going away anytime soon. And at the higher end are the used PFM and other bras

37

As I tried to point out above. The market potential may be larger, since the Ma&Pa scrapped their last one in 1952 which takes it into the popular transition era.

Enjoy

Paul

38

I could see that there would be more of a larger market for it since it is associated with the transitional era. I’d think that familiarity would be the issue here. Unless one is more familiar with a specific era, be it through memory or through what they know through what was actually studied, it would be hard to market something like that.

BTW–the comments about the current models not being very good regarding pulling power need to remember that prototypically the 4-4-0 as a type were never really that great to begin with—the diameter of the driver wheels and the ‘unbalanced’ nature of the trucksets were problematic—IIRC the 4-4-4 idea turned out even worse—

My favorite is still the little 2-6-0

39

Ulrich,

Not to go to far off your topic, but I too will offer some insight into the popularity of the Ma & Pa.

I actually live in a house who’s orginal 8 acres (now only 1 acre) bordered the Ma & Pa right of way here in our little village of Forest Hill, MD.

The tracks are gone but signs of the right of way remain and the station still stands. The Station is a model train shop today. Much of the right of way is a hiking trail. The Ma & Pa injoyed a last fling of railfan excursions in the early 50’s and thereby ingraned itself into the minds of many railroad fans then.

Additonally, because steam lasted well into the 1950’s, it was well documented by several local historians.

And it played a key roll in the develeopement of this whole area, example, our house, built in 1901, the same time the railroad was convered to standard gauge, received much of its building materials via the Ma & Pa.

There is likely as much “data” about the Ma & Pa from 1901 to 1956, as there is about “nationaly famious” locos like the General.

Information means abilty to model accurately, and that alone attracts some modelers.

There may well be a greater percentage of modelers in Germany than here, no evidence either way from where I sit. But as I said before, there is so much more here to potentially model (at least 50x) and only 4 times the people to be potentially interested in it.

You commented about nearly full rosters being available? How many locos is that? The B&O Railroad alone had over 200 different identified classes of steam locos. Addmitted some could hardly be distinguished from each other, but even by wheel arrangement, they had dozens of classes.

Sheldon

40

Within the last week there have been an unusual number of threads, at least five, about older steamers. Two seem to stand out in my mind as stmiulating this interest. The first was the one about the Civil War layout setting in Atlanta GA and the second was the reaction to Factory Direct Trains blow out sale of their latest steamer, NYC J1E. The ones in between, however, were the most informative and interesting.

After reading these threads about the older steamers I realized that they were absent in my train roster. Using info gleamed from these threads I started looking at my internet hobby shops and decided on a Spectrum 4-6-0 w/s from Micro Mark as reccomended as having the best price in one of the threads. They also had the 4-4-0 but since I had to choose I thought the 4-4-0 looked a little too old for my transition era layout.

As for the number of cars it can pull, it really doesn’t matter as my layout limits that number as well and I’m guessing that trains weren’t very long at that time anyway.

My bet is that I’m not the only one buying steam this week and that the vendors will see a pop in sales this week.

Bob