After the wonderful job MTH did with the Class J, this will be the next engine I will buy from them.
After watching some videos of it run, as you all have, I think its amazing. But the problem is, as cool as the thing looks, I don’t really know anything about it. [D)]
I guess for starters, I was wondering will it fit on my layout theme of basically the PRR and N&W in Cincinnati. Would it make sense to ever see a prr T1 crossing paths with the Streamlined Empire State Express.
I assume that most NYC engines ran between New York City and Chicago, am I correct? Were stops also made in cincinatti?
I’m bringing this up, because, for instance, as sleek as the New Haven I-5 looks, I have thought it over and decided it would be best not to get one because it simply didn’t go anywhere near my monster PRR engines. It would not fit my layout whatsoever.
Would you ever see a prr T1 anywhere near the streamlined empire state express or the dreyfuss 20th century limited?
I really don’t know anything about the NYC, didn’t find wikipedia or other sites about the engine I want too helpful. Considering the expense of another MTH engine, I really wanted to ask people on here if I should go for it? I really have a thing for art deco locos, but I don’t want this to be an impulse purchase.
The niagara is a great engine, but I will never buy the Blue Line version after having multiple problems with this line. It really is a nice engine, and basically is the equivalent of the PRR T1 duplex. If MTH released one, I would definately buy it.
I looked up the J3a hudson link on the wikpedia page, doesn’t really say much about where the Empire Express went, or if it traveled in close proximity to the big prr steamers of crestline, Ohio.
I’m really looking for an art deco loco, although if a Paragon Niagara showed up on ebay for a reasonable price, I might consider getting one. This used to be my first choice for a NYC central loco, until I saw MTH’s new releases.
I did find a painting on google images of an early fully skirted T1 next to the Dreyfus Hudson. If this happened in real life, I have no idea
Yes, the New York Central’s primary (or waterlevel) route was between New York City and Chicago; going through cities such as Albany, Buffalo, and Cleveland along the way. There were also routes to other large cities like Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and St. Louis (Big Four).
I know for sure the Niagaras and Mohawks traveled to Cincinnati. However, I can’t say for sure that the ESE or Dreyuss Hudsons made it down there. I’ll look in my NYC steam book this evening to see if I can’t find anything more definitive for you.
Personally, if I were to buy an “Art Deco” locomotive, I would wait for the BLI 20th Century Dreyfuss Hudson, which is due for release next month:
Now, whether the December release is still a reality is anyone’s guess. The above pre-production picture is encouraging but there still hasn’t been any update about the specifics of the locomotive on BLI’s web site. However, even if it’s release goes beyond December, I’m still willing to wait. I waited 28 months for my BLI L-4 Mohawk and glad I did. Despite the fact that I had an initial problem with mine, BLI fixed it and it’s quite a VERY nice locomotive. [:)][tup]
About the Empire State Express. A friend of mine bought an MTH ESE recently and told me the following in an e-mail:
“Striking model for the first time viewer. Stainless steel looks believable but the level of detail is not there.”
Having seen his MTH NYC L-3a Mohawk a few months ago, I can believe that
I am glad that MTH decided to release this unique and lesser known version of the NYC Hudsons. Still - given the choice - I would wait for the BLI Dreyfuss Hudson. IMHO, I think it will be a nicer looking locomotive than either of MTH’s offerings.
The Empire State Express ran from Harmon (End of Electrified Territory in NYC) to Buffalo, later extended to Cleveland. Normally one would not see the T1 and the streamlined Hudsons together except on leaving Chicago thru Englewood Ill. where their tracks diverged with the PRR going southeast to Fort Wayne and Crestline and the NYC following the Northern Indiana border to Toledo and Lake Erie.
I myself would wait for the BLI version as I want nothing to do with lawsuit happy MTH.
Yes, the New York Central’s primary (or waterlevel) route was between New York City and Chicago; going through cities such as Albany, Buffalo, and Cleveland along the way. There were also routes to other large cities like Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and St. Louis (Big Four).
I know for sure the Niagaras and Mohawks traveled to Cincinnati. However, I can’t say for sure that the ESE or Dreyuss Hudsons made it down there. I’ll look in my NYC steam book this evening to see if I can’t find anything more definitive for you.
Personally, if I were to buy an “Art Deco” locomotive, I would wait for the BLI 20th Century Dreyfuss Hudson, which is due for release next month:
Now, whether the December release is still a reality is anyone’s guess. The above pre-production picture is encouraging but there still hasn’t been any update about the specifics of the locomotive on BLI’s web site. However, even if it’s release goes beyond December, I’m still willing to wait. I waited 28 months for my BLI L-4 Mohawk and glad I did. Despite the fact that I had an initial problem with mine, BLI fixed it and it’s quite a VERY nice locomotive.
About the Empire State Express. A friend of mine bought an MTH ESE recently and told me the following in an e-mail:
“Striking model for the first time viewer. Stainless steel looks believable but the level of detail is not there.”
Having seen his MTH NYC L-3a Mohawk a few months ago, I can believe that
I am glad that MTH decided to release this unique and lesser known version of the NYC Hudsons. Still - given the choice - I would wait
The NYC trains that went to Cincinatti ran south from Chicago on the Illinois Central line to Kankakee behind IC power to the NYC line at Kankakee. This NYC line ran to Cincinatti via Indianapolis Indiana. The James W Riley was the name train on that line behind an non streamlined Hudson. Cincinatti was the end of the line for that branch of the NYC so all trains stopped there.
The streamlining on the NYC hudsons was removed in 1945 shortly after a grade crossing incident. The production PRR T1’s started to arrive in 1946 so having the BLI later modified T1and on of the Dreyfuss Hudson racing out of Chicago is only a dream, but this is HO and we can do that with the modelers license.
There might be pictures of the early prototype T1 and a Dreyfuss Hudson racing out of town prior to the removal of the streamlining.
That particular Hudson was designed specifically for the Empire State Express which ran from Grand Central Station to Buffalo. The Hudson took over at Harmon from the electrics which took it to and from GCS. It was designed to run with a new fleet of fluted stainless steel cars, each named for a New York governor. The NYC scheduled its inaugural run for this train in late 1941 as a special for the news media and selected a Sunday figuring it would be a slow news day which might give them front page coverage in the New York newspapers. The train was one hour out of GCS when they received word that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor. Needless to say, they didn’t get their front page coverage.
Several of the early T1’s have been produced in HO. Key has made them along with Gem and probably some other importers like Challenger also. The old Gem’s need some tuning up like replacing the motor, but they looked fairly good. The Key is a very nice model and they tend to run like a watch. The Challenger if you can find one, is very nice but you will need lots of money for those.
The Dreyfuss steam locomotives hauled the 20th Century from Harmon NY to Chicago. They used electrics out of New York City to Harmon NY, about thirty miles north of the city. Steam that had the PT4 tender pulled the trains to Chicago with only one coaling stop. They used track pans to pick up water fairly often and the 40 tons of coal allowed the run between Harmon and Chicago with one fuel stop. The NYC ran via Albany, Utica, Syracuse Rochester and Buffalo to get to Ohio and Cleveland on the way to Chicago. They had many branch type lines feeding into the main line which I believe to be the NY to Chicago run water level route.
That day turned out to be the worst day they could have picked, but who would have known at the time. I wonder if the Public Relations people got fired or demoted?
To put that in context with today’s news, it would be like a new airline starting up on September 11, 2001 out of Boston or Newark. No front page coverage and you just don’t want to be there.
Awesome, thanks. I see the sharper nose and the portholes.
Interesting though, on the Key model, the keystone on the side of the tender seems to be in the same position as the production version, just like the BLI one. Its also de skirted. The other detail I noticed is that the early prototype had no trainphone antenna whereas the Key one does. I’m still confused about this because MTH release two in O gauge, both based on the prototype, the PS1 version has no antenna whereas the second run has it, just like the Key model.
I thought the prototype had a much larger PRR logo, not centered above the Pennsylvania script, but rather to the right of it.
Like this:
I have seen the Challenger S-1 and its a beautiful piece, the best one I have seen.
I love these brass HO models, but for that price I can’t see myself
Oh well, even if it doesn’t fit my layout, I may just buy it for the sheer beauty of hit. I can’t get over the level of detail put into this one…or those driver lights.
The Empire State Express was a day train from New York to Buffalo and the fluted stainless steel Hudsons were designed for that train. That is not to say they wouldn’t have been used in other service later on. My reference tells me Hudsons 5426 and 5429 received this stream styling. Eventually, the firebox skirting was removed from these locos for ease of maintenance. By the end of WWII, standard PT centipede tenders had replaced the stainless steel skirted ones. Two years later, E7s replaced the Hudsons as the standard power for the ESE.
I don’t know how strictly you adhere to prototypes but you could justify these Hudsons showing up in Cincinnati by saying they had been bumped from the ESE by the diesels and relegated to a secondary train. I’ve mainly studied the NYC’s New York/Chicago operations so I don’t really know what trains they ran into Cincy, but you might find a plausible one to put it on without too much of a stretch.
I have a Rivarossi version of this loco which was issued in conjunction with its 50th anniversary. Unfortunately, Rivarossi still had oversized flanges then which don’t run well on code 83 track. I’m looking at seeing if I can fit the shell onto one of my BLI Hudsons. If not, I might bite the bullet and buy the MTH version.
I want to correct something I said in an earlier post. The press special was actually run in late November. December 7, 1941 was the first revenue run o
The Empire State Express was a day train from New York to Buffalo and the fluted stainless steel Hudsons were designed for that train. That is not to say they wouldn’t have been used in other service later on. My reference tells me Hudsons 5426 and 5429 received this stream styling. Eventually, the firebox skirting was removed from these locos for ease of maintenance. By the end of WWII, standard PT centipede tenders had replaced the stainless steel skirted ones. Two years later, E7s replaced the Hudsons as the standard power for the ESE.
I don’t know how strictly you adhere to prototypes but you could justify these Hudsons showing up in Cincinnati by saying they had been bumped from the ESE by the diesels and relegated to a secondary train. I’ve mainly studied the NYC’s New York/Chicago operations so I don’t really know what trains they ran into Cincy, but you might find a plausible one to put it on without too much of a stretch.
I have a Rivarossi version of this loco which was issued in conjunction with its 50th anniversary. Unfortunately, Rivarossi still had oversized flanges then which don’t run well on code 83 track. I’m looking at seeing if I can fit the shell onto one of my BLI Hudsons. If not, I might bite the bullet and buy the MTH version.
I want to correct something I said in an earlier post. The press special was actually run in late November. December 7, 19
That is correct. I can’t locate my timetable but based on memory, the ESE had a morning departure from GCS and I believe it was about an 8 hour run to Buffalo. The train had no sleepers. However, because the ESE didn’t run at night, that doesn’t mean those locos never did. As I said earlier, diesels replaced them on the ESE in 1947 and I don’t have definitive information on what became of them after that but I imagine they were reassigned to different trains until the end of the steam era on the NYC. I can’t even tell you if they kept their stainless steel skirting. If you aren’t a strict prototyper, you should be able to come up with a plausible reason to run it when and where you choose. That’s what I intend to do. My railroad is a freelanced subsidiary of the NYC set in the 1950s which gives me an excuse to run hand-me-down NYC steam on a secondary line.
I lived along the main line to St. Louis and most power did not have the antenna on the tender. The PRR assigned locomotives to certain runs and our line did not have the radio gear installed. The T1’s seemed to have it since they were used system wide at one time. The K4’s that I have pictures of in our area did not have the phone service, but they did have the phone system on other mainline assignments. Most Key models have two versions and you can find the PRR models both with and without the radio gear.
The early version of the T1 like the picture and the model were short lived and they were modified in 46 to the late version. I believe the production locomotives lasted about a year or less in the original version since they were built in 45 and 46 after WWII, but the prototype (6110) had been running around for a longer period of time having been built in 1942. It was send to Altoona in April of 1944 for instrument testing after compiling 120000 miles of road service between Chicago and Crestline. The Pennsy Power book has a lot of pictures and details on the T1 class engines. The book states the later change in the front end was to facilitate maintenance.
