Something I’ve always wondered… A train goes by. One of the cars has a flat wheel that goes thumpa- thumpa- thumpa because it’s flat on the bottom. Presumably, at some point, the car will need to be set out and have a new wheel put on. Should I be telling someone at a railroad about this, or do they already know? If it would help anyone, i could tell the location, time, direction of travel, and the car number to someone.
Depends if there are impact detectors on the line you are watching, if so, they know already.
If not, it will be picked up or caught during an inspection or an initial terminal brake test, or someone moving the car in a yard or transfer should report it as a bad order.
Do this…next one you see/hear, write the car number down….watch to see if the same train comes back on a return run…then the next time you see the car, the bad wheel set should be gone, if not, the call the 1800 number and report it.
There are well over a million freight cars in interchange service on the North American rail system. Unless it’s in captive service, the chances of him ever seeing the same freight car twice is minuscule.
And I really doubt that a flat spotted wheel is cause to call an emergency number. They seem common enough and unlikely to be an immediate emergency. Save that for things like hotboxes, a wheel off the tracks, a lumber load that has shifted, fire, malfunctioning grade crossing warning signals, a vehicle stuck on the tracks, broken rail, and so on.
That’s the type of stuff that requires immediate attention.
“a flat wheel that goes thumpa- thumpa- thumpa because it’s flat on the bottom” I now this is nitpicking, but it’s not flat on the “bottom” – it has a flat spot somewhere on the tread. If the car is stopped, the flat spot could be anywhere, on the top for that matter. An automobile flat tire is just flat on the bottom, right? Just take it off and put the flat spot on top – that’ll solve the problem!
All stupid jokes aside, there are standards for flat spots that car knockers are aware of, and if the spot exceeds the max, the car is flagged for wheel work. I’ve been hearing flat spots for over 50 years and on two continents, and even the Italian passenger trains sometimes have flat spots. It’s not a big deal unless they are too big, and then the wheel set is chucked in a lathe and re-trued. Unless the truing will exceed tolerances for wheel size or other factors, the wheel will not need to be replaced. .
Oh yeah, I forgot there were experts here…follow their advice Murphy, flat spots are nothing to worry about.
Wow! I have heard some moving outbounds that were really loud - wonder if this is one of them? And we have detectors detecting the detectors in our yard. Theme of the week - someone not doing their job…?
Murphy - wonder what kind of sound these would have made?
My carrier has Wheel Impact Detector at various locations around the system. The detectors are also equipped with a Car ID scanner. The health of each car is reported to the main computer system and is matched against the consist information. The detector reports 4 levels of impact.
Level 4 is the lowest impact that rates to being an exception. Nothing is done except the record is placed in the cars computer file.
Level 3 is of more impact than Level 4, another record is placed in the cars computer file and notification is made to the destination terminal of the train in the form of a Early Warning notification.
Level 2 is more severe than Level 3. Immediate notification is broadcast by the Mechanical Dept to the Dispatcher on whose territory the WILD detector is located - the car (and thereby the train) is restricted to 30 MPH to the next terminal when the car will be set out.
Level 1 is the most severe. Notification is broadcast by the Mechanical Dept. to the appropriate Dispatcher. The train must be brought to a stop and the crew is to inspect the identified car. If the crew believes the car is safe to move, it is to be moved at 10 MPH to the nearest set off track.
I do not know the specific thresholds of the various levels.
I’ve seen some cars on the Union Pacific Sunset Route with flat spots on their wheels so bad they were literally bouncing up and down. Wheel inspectors? Impact detectors? Maybe UP doesn’t use them.
This pounding by the wheels could easily damage concrete ties.
Trust me, UP has some WILDs out there (which is not to say they don’t need more). We used to get cars that were bad-ordered by these devices. They’d show up on our hump sheets as bad orders, complete with which wheel(s) was the offending one, and, more often than not, no bad-order tags from the receiving-yard inspection. So those devices do a decent job of catching flat spots.
I’ve always been of the opinion that I heard more flat spots in recent years because of welded rail–back in the days of jointed rail, the sound of the wheels going over the joints would mask the sound of flat spots to the untrained ear.
In all fairness, Ed, those wheels you showed quit going “thump-thump-thump” a long time ago.
Norris, if you just hear the noise, don’t worry too much. If, like Mr. Cacole, you see bouncing in the cars caused by the flat spots, that might be cause for concern. Smoking (or sparking, after dark) coming from the wheels, with or without the noise, is also worth calling about.
Ed, something puzzles me about that wheel with the “flat spot.” In the first picture the wheel looks like it was dragged with a bearing or brake locked up, but in the third picture, as far as I can make out, the opposite wheel appears to be intact and on the rail. Shouldn’t both wheels have suffered close to the same fate?
A-wop-bop-a-loo-bop, wop-bam-bop. But just until the train got out in the country. Then it would be oom-pop-a-oom-pop-a-oom-pop-a-mow mow.
Murphy - you can write my jokes any time! [:X][(-D]
On concrete ties when a dragging equipment detector is set off and nothing is found by a visual inspection, UP requires an audible test to check for a broken wheel. The crewmember is supposed to go 10 cars ahead of the indicated car (if the detector gave an axle number) and have the train pulled past for 20 cars, listening for a thumping sound. If no indicated axle, the entire train must be inspected.
All thumping isn’t the same. There’s thumping, then there’s THUMPING. The minor thumping, that fades away after a few cars during a normal roll-by is probably nothing to worry about. (Although if it were me, even a minor flaw if found during an audible test after a detector alarm would get set out as a CYA measure.) Very rare is the train that doesn’t have some of that minor thumping. It’s the louder or longer lasting sound that needs attention. When it comes down to it, it’s a judgment call. When it doubt, set it out.
In addition to broken ties, a broken wheel can cause broken rails. A few years ago a train with a bad wheel caused multiple broken rails. What made management mad wasn’t so much that, but that a section man was injured during the repairs. Repairs that probably wouldn’t have been needed had someone detected it. They determined that the train with the bad wheel had went past at least one stopped train and that the crew must not have done a roll-by inspection. (The reasoning being, if it was bad enough to break rails, someone doing a rol
Ed’s pictured car is obviously the extreme example of a flat spot - and the only explanation I can think of is the one of the wheels had become lose on it’s axle and wasn’t moving in concert with the wheel on the other end of the axle. As the picture of the car showed - the car was not derailed as all 4 wheels of the truck were being supported on top of the rail, not the ground.
In our real world use of WILD detectors, the defect reports we receive from the Mechanical Department for the defects rarely identify both wheels on the same axle and I also find it ‘odd’ for only one wheel on the axle pair to have gotten flat enough to activate the detector. Why this seems to occur more frequently than both wheels getting similar flat spots I don’t have a answer for.
The WILD detector on my territory is positioned to test most all of the loaded coal trains that are run on the Division. In some cases, Level 3 impact defects have not had their wheelsets changed out when they reached the destination terminal and the cars have been run empty back to the mines for reloading. When the cars went over the WILD detector empty, they only activated the detector to the Level 2 reading, which required no actions of the train crew. In the next loaded movement over the WILD detector they were gener
My guess is that the wheel did not get to that point entirely by sliding. Instead, the bad wheel got to that point mostly by a major breakage that lost about 40% of the wheel. Then with that big chunk missing, the wheel stopped turning. The opposite wheel stopped too, because they are both locked to the axle.
If that is what happened, I would expect a big burned flat spot on the opposite wheel, but it may be hidden from view. It would not look like the wheel in the foreground because it did not lose a big amount of material by breakage before the sliding began.
The wheel broke because of a flat spot hanging in the brake shoe, the spru or wheel/rail spall built up on the wheel by being slid through a yard with the hand brakes tied too tight.
Once out of the yard and in route, somewhere along the way, during a routine air brake application, the wheel locked in the brake head because of the large spall, it also had an internal defect, the heat enticed the defect till it shattered, then the wheel rotated at least once, estimates are more….the bearing locked, look at the heat marks on the bearing and the bearing adaptor, note the “rust” which is from the heat….the wheel was hot enough to expand enough for the axle to rotate,the wheels are pressed onto the axel, there is no locking key way, and the bearing gave up the ghost, the axle sheared just behind the bearing, with enough still in the bearing sleeve to support the car,
…the opposite wheel rolled fine, but had a corresponding flat spot, condemnable, (over 2”) but that’s about all.
The world is weirder than we can imagine!
I have seen 2 or 3 broken flanges in the last 25 years and they definitely make noise. I will make sure to google the line and call them immediately. There is a UP line through my delivery area and I have called them at least once for a crossing arm stuck down and its location. They were very positive for me a train nut to call them and tell them whats wrong.
The “number to call” should be plainly posted at each crossing. I’ve got the number for CSX in my cell phone. If you regularly fan certain railroads, it might be a good idea to have all of them. Doesn’t hurt if you know (at least generally) the mileposts in your area.
The usual caveat, though - the number is for serious stuff (like that chain hanging off a flat car we saw a few years ago - if it hit someone, it wouldn’t have been pretty), so limit your calls as such (obviously crossing equipment malfunctions fit the bill, too).
I can just see someone calling in to report that they couldn’t read the reporting marks on a “patched” car…
Back on topic - flat spots is something we discuss in rules class each year, right down to the parameters. Don’t remember the specifics off the top of my head, but I’ll dig out the appropriate rulebood for us later and share.
I was trackside one day near a CN yard where a car shop is. A truck with two sets of wheels on the back stopped to ask what I was doing as the train I photographed rolled past. A railcar passed that had made the loud thump you describe Norris. I looked at the employee in the truck and asked if he needed to let the train know. He said “If you can’t hear it thumping at speed more than 7 cars away either direction, we don’t need to know about it.” I’ve always gone by that rule.
I’ve heard that (or variations on the theme) as well.