My nephew is a police officer in Franklin Grove, IL. He told me during a recent visit, he had ticketed the engineer of a UP train for exceding the speed limit (45mph) through town. He stated he clocked the train traveling 71mph.
My questions are as follows;
Do local police have jurisdiction on the speed of trains? Trains are traveling on private property.
If they do, wouldn’t it follow that state police could ticket trains outside the city limits for speeding?
What is the max speed limit on the C&NW main (now UP) between Ashton, IL, Franklin Grove, IL, and Dixon, IL?
I grew up in this area and 71 seems excessive to me. If the engineer was speeding, wouldn’t the speed recorder pick it up thus resulting in a reprimand from UP?
Local and state governments have no jurisdiction over train speed, however, railroads will sometimes restrict speed in some areas in accordance with local government wishes. Further, local police have no powers to enforce railroad speed limits as these are created by and enforced by the railroad, not any government. Railroads do vigorously enforce speed limits using a variety of methods, including the speed recorder.
Train speed is under the jurisdiction of the FRA. From the Appeals Court ruling in the Orr case:
“The (FEDERAL) Act and regulations are intended to avoid a patchwork of individual speed restrictions along a track. The district court erred in concluding that the conditions in Orr amount to an essentially local safety hazard, for there is no evidence that these conditions amount to a hazard ‘which is not statewide in character and not capable of being adequately encompassed within national uniform standards,’ whether analyzed separately or in combination.”
Did he get ahead of it and park his squad car across the tracks to get the train stopped? Or perhaps he stood in front of it waving his hands? [:-^]
As a legal matter the ability of state or local jurdistictions to control the operation of trains is extremely limited due to federal preemption. Such matters usually end up in federal court,and I doubt Franklin Park is willing to ante up the legal fees to determine the limits of their authority in this area.
Others on the forum might be willing to elaborate on the history of similiar attempts. Orr Minnesota tried it a couple of years ago with the results cited above.
Any engineer who ran 71 mph where the track speed was 45 mph would have more to worry about than a local cop with a radar gun.
Maybe the locality put up it’s own speed limit sign? A similar thing happened here, but not on a railroad. Local residents, unhappy with what they perceived to be motorists speeding on their road, posted their own 30 mph speed limit signs on a 40 mph road. Might have been more effective if they’d covered up or taken down the 40 mph signs, but that would have been vandalism. The 30 mph signs came down shortly thereafter, since they weren’t authorized in the first place…
I’d want to see a copy of the ticket/ citation before putting too much stock into such a report.
Now, for example - I wonder what section of the state’s vehicle code was cited ? The one prohibiting speeding on a public highway ? Doesn’t something seem a little bit wrong there, sport ?
Or, even if it was a village/ town ordinance - what was specified for the location ? Unless it was right along a road or at a grade crossing - then the ‘‘middle of Farmer Jones’ field’’ ? Would the officer even know about the railroad’s MP system and numbering
I wondered how far and how fast did the cop have to go to get the engineers attention, then how much further before the train actually stopped…yeah, Paul, something sounds fishy here.
My quick ‘Advanced Search’ using both Google’s ‘Web’ and ‘News’ sites - for ‘‘Franklin Grove’’ as an ‘exact wording or phrase’ + ‘‘train’’ as a required word - did not return any results that even remotely resembled this story within the past year.
That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen; but it does mean that it didn’t get the attention of the ‘main stream media’ - which I would expect to have happened with this kind of ‘man bites dog’ story, wouldn’t you ?
Maybe your nephew should consider entering this one in a ‘Tall Stories’ competition of some kind . . . [swg]
No “points” for DL’s in IL. IIRC three moving violations in three years = suspension; three moving violation in one stop = silver bracelets. Also, there isn’t a state vehicle inspection needed. The urban areas require an emissions test so you don’t drive a “polluter.” [(-D]
So, if the officer ticketed the engineer for speeding, he missed “no seatbelt” and “no brake lights.” Those would have allowed an arrest! [swg][(-D][swg]
A friend of mine whose Dad was a C&NW engineer told me about a run in his Dad had with a local cop while working a local train. The crew was dropping off a couple of cars at a customer when a driver skidded into their train. It was icy day in January. The driver was not injured and no damage to either box car. His car wasn’t so lucky and had to be towed. They called the local police. The cop sited the driver for careless driving, BUT also asked my friend’s Dad for his drivers license. His conductor told told the cop that you did NOT need a driver’s license in the state of Minnesota to operate a railroad locomotive.My friend’s Dad was cited for operation of a motor vehicle( a GP9 ) without a license and was detained. He had left his license in his locker at Cedar Lake yard in Minneapolis and did not work with his wallet.His conductor called the C&NW in Minneapolis and told them what happened. They dispatched an attorney who demanded his immediate release and informed the police and the town that this happened that they will be sued by the railroad for interference with the operation of a train. This happened back in 1961.My friend said that his Dad never carried his driver’s license in the all the years he worked for the M&StL or the C&NW.
This interaction between the local constabulary, and it’s juristiction, seems to crop up from time to time. local politicians get a ‘burr under their saddles’, and want to take it out on soneone/something they deem as less likely to pay attention and just pay the fine.
" Some years back, in Memphis, Tenn. ( the Southern Rwy, now NS line) runs due east out of town. The line is on its own rightof way, and is paralleled most of the way out to the eastern city limits by Southern Ave, as well as other city thoroughfares. Local enforced speed limit on the street was 35 MPH.
The railroad’s own speed limit was considerably higher, and trains leaving easterly were always accelerating at a higher rate than the 35 MPH local limit. Local motorists, knowing they were about to be delayed would dart across the various crossings in front of the trains with the predictable results. So the city council would discuss the ‘speeding’ trains, and the action they could take… Have the PO’lice go out and run radar, write tickets to those speeders!
Well, what usually ensued was a coulpe of cops (Po’lice) racing out Southern Ave with their siren blaring, arms outstretched to the offending train crew to :“stop in the name of the law!” This was only successful when the Dispatcher was directing that train to take the passing siding out east to meet an inbound. So you’d see the Po’lice climbing on to the offending stopped locomotive to give the speeder his summons. You should be able to imagine the invective, and profanity laced exchange in the cab[soapbox]. As the offenders told the cops "how the hog ate the turnip!’
I do recall one incident where the crew was cuffed and stuffed by the PO’lice, and the train was left for the Dispatcher to sort out. I
The ticket was sent in to UP with the engine number, date, time, direction of travel, etc… I asked if UP paid the ticket and he said he hadn’t heard if they had or not. I told hom not to hold his breath waiting for it to be paid.
Thanks to all for the replies. I was pretty sure local PD had no jurisdiction but I wanted be sure.
Our timetable shows no speed restrictions whatsoever through Franklin Grove. There is a 45-mph restriction a few miles east of there, but it is not because of town regulations.
Years ago, there was a 50-mph speed limit through DeKalb, dating back to CNW days. Anyone who’s driven through downtown DeKalb and seen the grade crossings there knows that such a restriction could be justified just by the layout (which consists of a grade crossing at or near the intersection of two state highways, at a very acute angle to the busier of the two). But UP has eliminated that restriction, and 70-mph trains can go 70 through there. They do have the automated warning system that relieves engineers of the responsibility of sounding the crossing signal for the crossings in this area.
Generally speaking, UP wants to bring slow spots in its lines up to track speed. If there is a speed restriction through town, they’ll upgrade the track if necessary, give public announcements, then raise their speed through the town in ten-mile-per-hour increments each week until the new speed is attained. They usually also cite the fact that the railroad is thereby tying up the grade crossings for shorter periods of time.
I know that Franklin Grove has a nice little trackside park; I stopped there once on a bike trip from Sterling to Lombard. But I doubt that anyone with a railroad to run is particularly interested in slowing down and admiring their little town. There’s nothing unsafe about the speeds at which UP’s trains travel through there–it’s well-maintained heavy rail on (or soon to be on) concrete ties. Their town consists of a grade crossing or two, protected by gates and at roughly 90-degree angles to the tracks. So, one has to figure that UP would see no justification for a speed restriction through the town, and would either ignore or fight any attempts to impose one.
So please tell Nephew Barney to go after the gate-crashers instead.
Several years ago a small city (40,000 +/-) with several closely spaced street crossings was considering an ordinance restricting trains speed through the City to 25 MPH. The Railroad, with whom I was employed, was notified of the proposed ordinance and sent officials to the City Council meeting to explain possible consequences if the RR had to reduce to 25 MPH from its own limit of 45 MPH.
These consequence were not presented as any threat but rather to point out that trains longer than one mile would tie up several intersections if restricted to no more than 25 MPH. Further that the current preponderance of rail traffic indeed occurred during morning and evening ‘rush hour’. A minority of the Council agreed that the 25 MPH would make things worse, but the ‘little old ladies in tennis shoes’ prevailed and the ordinance passed.
The RR decided to comply, even though they had a right to appeal or even disregard the Ordinance, The result was that the Ordinance was repealed within 2-3 months because of the traffic tie ups.This lesson was not lost on other municipalities considering similar restrictions.
That’s right. Over the maximum authorized speed by 10 mph and you lose your license for a while. A card I’ve been carrying for a while lists the civil penalties as follows:
First Offense - 30 days, 3 years probation.
Second Offense - 1 year, 3 years probation.
Third Offense - 5 years, (time to find a new job) [that’s actually printed on the card]
Here’s a partial list that can earn those penalties.
Unlawful: (1) passing of stop signal; (2) control of speed; (3) brake tests; (4) occupancy of main track; (5) tampering or operation with disabled safety device.
That card was handed out several years ago at a union meeting. I think the monetary fines have since been increased. The time off requirements are what the law requires. The railroad could also impose penalties beyond that. For example instead of 30 days off for a first offense the railroad might impose 60 days off.
Now, the US is known for having some funny laws. Here in my country (Austria) the operation of railways is controlled by federal law, regardless of the ownership of the railroads.
I am using a light rail line for commuting to and from work on a daily basis, it is privately owned an run, and operates mostly on its own right of way. This ROW does sometimes run parallel to roads, in- and outside of the communities the light rail line serves. There are several locations where the speed limit for the trains is set much higher than that set for road traffic going alongside (50 mph for trains and only 38 mph for roads), but no police officer in his right set of minds would even get the idea to ticket the train drivers!
There is even a line of the Austrian federal railways running in parallel to a street in a built up area of the capital city (Vienna) where the speed limit on the street is signposted to 44 mph and the trains are allowed a track speed of 56 mph! The system is built fairly ingenious though where electronic circuitry on the tracks send signals directing traffic lights at rail crossings with this city street. There was never an accident there despite of the fact that there are no bars used on the crossings. At least I couldn’t find such reports although I did quite an extensive search for it.
But then, European car drivers are much more used to go alongside rails and most drivers are also frequent train users, su I guess there is more train consciousness in our minds.
Nonetheless, I still think that the nephew of the user who started this thread was pulling the leg of his uncle.