Hi I have been intrigued by Woodland scenics incline system. Yesterday I purchased a couple small boxes from Hobby store took get a feel of the product. Im confident that with the proper material I might finally build an elevated railroad that my trailers will stay with the engine and my track will not faulter.
Has anyone tried a 4% grade? It elevates the track from 0" to 4" in 8 ft.
Is that too high too fast for HO trains. I am not using any18" radius only 22 and 24" and several straight pcs. on an 5x9 somewhat oval track.
That’s a little high for routine running. Combine the grade with the sharp curves and you won’t be able to run much more than an engine and a car or two. The general wisdom is to limit your grades to 2% or less. There have been several good threads recently on maximum grades. Check them out via the search function. Some good information.
The up sloping transition from flat to climbing, the down sloping transition from climbing to flat again, the actual climbing portion itself. All three combine to a ruling grade. Be certain that you don’t have long cars/locos that can get bottomed out, uncoupled or have other issues with the transition areas.
Logging RRs had up to 10% grades or more. I think the Saluda grade average is 5.4% and it’s a mainline class 1 grade, they had to break trains down to take them up and down the hill. Typical mainline class 1 is 2% or less.
So, it’s up to you and what you want to model.
Note that steamers aren’t as good as diesels (similar size) for pulling trains up grades. You can get more weight on the drivers with HO model diesels. Of course you can always add traction tires, but to me that’s cheating–lol.
I forgot to add that we have done 4% grades with minimal curvature and had no problems with pulling 6 or less cars. This was a mountain scene for rail canons.
I have 2% grade on my layout that makes a loop and it is neat to see a train cross its tail BUT even at 2% it looks steep. 4% would be hard to pull off. Several folks on here have told tales of trying to do more than 2% only to undo their work
My guess is the woodland scenecs incline system is more for the folks who are transitioning from a 4x8 to something a little more advanced. But 4% grades are acceptable for small layouts running short trains of fewer than 10 cars long. If you want to run a larger layout with longer trains, I suggest you keep it down to 2 or 2.5% at the most. I did 2.5% on a garage layout and two engines could pull a 20 car train, barely, up the grade, but 15 cars is more realistic.
A 22" radius curve adds the equivalent of about 1.5% to the nominal grade. So your 4% grade would be effectively about 5.5%. Hard to make work reliably except perhaps hauling a very few cars a time.
4% is OK only if you’re willing to put up with the permanent operational restriction it will impose on operations over that length of track. The laws of physics are pretty immutable.
So, yes, some logging and some mainline RR grades were as steep or steeper, but they were nonetheless forced to live within the limitations of gravity and adhesion.
4% ruling grade - standard for the (English translation) Richstream Valley Iron Road.
HOWEVER, The Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo was designed from the beginning to be a home for short trains of short (4-wheel) cars pulled (and pushed) by diminutive teakettle tank locos. A typical mixed train consists of two four wheel freight cars and an elderly, diminutive passenger coach, with an 0-6-0T on each end. Adding another car means adding another locomotive, at which point the passing sidings are maxed out. The coal unit (four articulated hoppers and a pair of hopper-brakes) is too long for the sidings - and gets a 2-6-6-2 for motive power.
If you will be satisfied running short, light trains, four percent is workable. If you want to run long trains of modern cars, expect to need lots of power.
The prototype Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railway (ex Rio Grande) tackles four percent grades from Chama, NM to the top of Cumbres Pass. An excursion train needs three 2-8-2s to do it.
It might be instructive here to define “ruling grade”. It isn’t the steepest grade on a given district or division, although it could be. To clarify, the definition of a ruling grade is the steepest grade a typical timetabled train can manage with a single locomotive with the maximum trailing tonnage. For a light 2-8-2 pulling 1000 tons, it might be able to manage that tonnage and keep to the timetable going over the second steepest grade in the division, but not the steepest. If the railroad decides that it will use helpers on the steepest grade, then the ruling grade becomes the one the Mikado can manage by itself, that being the second steepest. However, if the railroad wants the Mike to be able to manage the entire division with the maximum tonnage it can haul over every high point in that division by itself, the steepest grade becomes the ruling grade.
That aside, the railroads that contended with grades over 2.2% knew they had their work cut out for them. Although several N. American railroads had mainline grades quite a bit steeper, they were almost without exception in designated helper districts. Not only is there the lifting, but the descending safely as well. Braking had to be a consideration. Sometimes a single locomotive can’t hold back on a given grade with a given tonnage.
With all that has been said it will be very important to allow sufficient room to transition from level to the grade and vice versa. An additional 18-24" at both ends would not be an unreasonable amount of space
This is a 4% grade around a 22 and 18" curve. My Kato engines could pull about 10 cars up the incline just fine. Yes the engine would slow a little and yes you could hear the engine work a little harder but nothing ever got hot.
This incline is not ising the WS system, and it is about 5%. My engines climb it with 6-8 cars no problem. On this layout I used mainly GP38-2 (P2K) and GP35 (kato), I also use a BLI SD40-2 and a Kato SD40-2 all with no issues.
Maybe the most important advice here is in the shortest post. IIRC, the WS incline starters do not have built in transitions, but just start you off right at 4%. This abrupt transition can cause all sorts of problems, from closely-coupled cars (and loco / tender combos) banging together to unwanted uncouplings, even derailments of longer equipment.
You can build a transition using extruded foam and shaping it to gradually equal the slope of your risers over a distance of a foot or so, but it’s something else to consider. All in all, if you can afford the space, I’d use a lower grade. I had a 3% grade on an earlier layout and was not happy with it.
No matter the capability of our model trains, I think that the ruling grade should be a grade that does not look toy-like or unrealistic.
In other words, to my taste, the eyeball test is usually more important than the operational test, although, of course, there are times when you might want to run a thirty-car train and you will likely then have operational grade restrictions…maybe…in my large-scale, it’s amazing how powerful and what good traction our model locomotives have—far exceeding the eyeball test!
I am in the process of rebuilding a couple of sections to remove some 3% and 4% grades.
I have never had an engine bog down, but it doesn’t take much load for it to sit there and spin the wheels. If you do use them, a transition of lesser grades is a must. A sudden change to or from a steep grade causes some cars to uncouple, and a change from 4% up to level will cause many engines to bottom out and hang.
I know it’s been pretty much a “don’t do it” parade, but have we caused you to change your mind, or are you playing the “to heck with all of you, I’m doing it MY way!” card? Which is your right, but don’t say we didn’t warn you.
Although, from the title of your thread, I think you already suspected what the answer would be.
I have not read the other replies to your post so as to assure I give you my unadulterated opinion…
My current and previous 11x15 HO layouts have had 2 percent grades. In my experience, that is as steep as I would venture for a mainline railroad.
Obviously, there are exceptions - a logging railroad, a mining railroad, or pretty much any narrow gauge railroad. And with those, I would say 4 percent is the maximum grade.
Yes, there have been (and I believe a few still exist) examples of mainline RRs with 3 percent or even higher grades, but those are exceptions and existed for the purpose of crossing the Rockies or the mountains of West Virginia, etc.
Just my opinion…and keep in mind it is YOUR railroad, so whatever you do, ENJOY!
Just for grins, let’s look at some prototype grades:
USA:
Madison Incline, Madison, IN. 5.89% climb up the cliffs bordering the Ohio River, operated by horses, then a rack loco. The first adhesion locomotive to conquer the hill was the Reuben Wells, now on display at the Indianapolis Children’s Museum. Currently ot of service and impassable.
Saluda Grade, North Carolina. 5.1% grade. Currently embargoed, may have been abandoned.
Cass Scenic Railway, Cass, WV. 11% grade in the final approach to Bald Knob, operated by Shays with light excursion trains. Former logger - empties up, loads down.
Japan: Usui Pass, 6.8%! Operated as a rack railway until the early 1960s, then adhesion until abandonment in 1994 with the completion of the Nagano Shinkansen line. 250 tons of low-geared electric locomotives could move 200 tons of train upgrade. I rode a four car EMU set that took two huge Co-Co motors as rolling brakes downgrade. Without them, the light MU cars would have become a steel toboggan.
The one basic fact about all of these operations is that they required special arrangements - even special locomotives specifically designed for their conditions. They weren’t simply a place where ordinary trains could slow down, dig in and climb.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with prototypically steep grades)
About 20 years ago, I built a bi-level switching layout on an 18" X 7’ plank from a plan in MR. The switchback climbed at about a 4.5 to 5% grade. An old Mantua 0-6-0-T could pull a maximum of 3 40’ cars up to the upper level. Mo old Mantua Booster 0-4-0T could sometimes manage 2 cars if I hit the throttle hard. An old International 0-8-0 from one of their screwdriver kits could pull about 6. I never tried it with any of my diesels.
I once counted an SW-1200 pull 90 empty gondolas out of a local steel plant into the nearby NS interchange yard. I also saw a card on line that showed that the SW-1200 should only be able to pull something like 70 cars on 0%, loosing about 20-25% of the train size for every 0.5% grade.
The OP probably already realizes this, but remember to look at your passing sidings car capacities. That too will limit the length of your trains. I your sidings can only handle 3 cars (for an example) then a grade that’ll allow only 3 cars would be ok IF they can get up the hill. If at all possible I wouldn’t go over 3% grades BEFORE curves. The transiition is essential or nothing will stay together going up or down.
If your passing siding can handle much longer trains, you will likely be disappointed with only being able to run only a few cars.
There are SOME locos/engines that’ll pull miraculously on steep grades but they are very far and few between and vary even among the same model and brand.
The nice thing about plywood ribbon sub roadbed is that the transition curve is automatically built in wneh the non-fastened end is raised to your desired grade… just in case you wanna switch construction materials/methods
