Taking a ride on Saturday behind NKP 765…I mean, 767!
https://fortwaynerailroad.org/2016/08/the-return-of-the-767/
There’s only one other time I saw this locomotive and that was shortly before it’s recent rebuild. That time it was the 2765 and lettered for the C&O.
Becky
Becky,
Nickel Plate Railroad was not the only company to pull the number change antic. The Pennsylvania Railroad famously scrapped its historic 4-6-2 Atlantic PR 7002. When the New York Central preserved its equally historic 4-4-0 American NYC 999 - Pennsy suddenly realized its mistake and assigned PR 7002 of the missing engine to PR 8063.
New York Central after a great deal of effort got NYC 999 up to a clocked 112.5 mph on several occasions using a special train and location near Batavia, New York.
Pennsylvania railroad reportedly topped the Central with a higher speed of 127.1 mph under less scientific conditions. Remember these speeds were calculated in an age before the methods of modern science and in the case of the Central were about the best time keeping that could be done. Centrals trains were regularly approaching 100 mph and the NYC 999 was constructed especially to try to top the mark and set a record. Which it reportedly did on several occasions.
NYC 999 can be seen today in the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry near where the Central displayed the locomotive over the years at various Chicago fairs and historic rail events. Chicago is of course, and has always been, the center of Americas rail travel. If it recognizes the honor or not!
I am not sure if Pennsy ever displayed its famous PR 7002 but it went to a lot of trouble to save a copy of it.
Doc
NYC&HR 999 as currently displayed at the MSI is hardly the same locomotive as built in the 1890’s. It was both re-boilered and re-drivered (at different times) by NYC in order to make it a more practical locomotive.
Actually, the 7002 was a 4-4-2, not a 4-6-2, but no matter, the rest of Dr. D’s comment is spot-on.
That ersatz 7002 ran for quite a few years on the Strasburg Railroad before being returned the the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania due to severe firebox erosion. Too bad, I’ve seen it, and it’s in wonderful condition otherwise.
PS: Becky, how was Saturday’s turnout for the “767” runs?
Certainly PRR “7002” is much closer to original condition than NYC&HR 999, if only because she still has her 80" drivers. Since the PRR engine isn’t actually the one that broke the speed record, and since she actually represents a different class with a Belpaire boiler instead of the real 7002’s radial type, I hope the Museum will someday decide to restore the original number, 8063. The engine has a very respectable pedigree in her own right, and I don’t see how any good purpose is served by perpetuating a myth. In the meantime, it’s comforting to know that the PRR 4-4-2 has a secure future, no matter which number she wears. I saw her at Strasburg a couple weeks ago and she’s magnificent.
As for 765 standing in for 767, there is no intent to deceive, and the renumbering is not permanent. Furthermore, the two engines were from the same order and almost indistinguishable. To my eye, this is a much more pleasing repaint than the D&H modifications of the RDG T-1 many years ago, or the many, many bogus schemes applied to various engines for movies. Some display locomotives are displayed with bogus paint schemes, or have been in the past. In some cases, there is no effort to explain the anomaly or correct an incorrect impression. The Fort Wayne group seems to be very careful to avoid following this unfortunate path.
Tom
999 in original working order with 86 inch drivers…
999 rebuilt with 70 inch drivers…
The original 7002 (not sure who the gentleman is)…
Latter-day Pennsy E6s Atlantic in working order…
Pennsy Atlantic E6s pulling a long string of varnish - 13 cars - at speed…
The E6s engines shown represent a much larger PRR engine type than 7002 or 8063.
Yes. Probably the pinnacle of development of the Atlantic type in the US. Engine 460 of this class was “The Lindbergh Engine”, purportedly reaching sustained speeds of 115 MPH for parts of the run to beat the aircraft.
SP A-6 rebuilds of four A-3 Atlantics came close but could not surpass the performance of the E6s.
SP A-6…
Didn’t happen yet. I’m keeping my fingers crossed as they’re forcasting rain.
Personally I think it’s a conspiracy to keep me from getting photos of the locomotive in it’s “ordinary” motif. [swg]
I will agree that the E6s is probably the ultimate design for a 4-4-2. This also made it a rather specialized design where its best performance required a line with minimal grades.
Apex of the Atlantics?
Then there is the Milwaukee Road Class A, an even more specialized high-speed design, but there were not very many of them at all, and they didn’t stay in service nearly as long.
There didn’t need to be a ‘better’ one for a couple of decades; all the advanced development went to Pacific designs instead, right up to the era where high speed and competition with ‘motor trains’ became of interest. Before the revolution in balancing (that started in the United States with Eksergian around 1928) it was still being assumed that four-coupled engines were still superior for very high speed, and some interesting designs (including the PRR follow-on to the E6s, the oil-fired E8, and in a real sense the T1 duplex) followed; note that PRR specifically used an E6s for the Lindbergh film train instead of a K4s.
In a sense, one of the futures of the “Atlantic” would be as a 4-4-4, just as the future of big eight-coupled power was to be an x-8-6. It might be added that, while some proponents of locomotive design advocate using thermal and metallurgical improvements to keep the firebox small enough for a two-wheel trailing truck, there is enough weight in added syphons, tubes, air heaters and grate apparatus to make weight distribution, point rail loading, and a couple other considerations for two-wheel truck stability and guiding matters of concern, perhaps even on a locomotive as small as a four-coupled if it needs the steam-generation capacity for sustained high-speed high-horsepower operation with good working economy.
Shame on you! Hint: He has something to do with a certain record run near Lima.
Have you forgotten who drove 999 on her record runs, too?
Milwaukee Road Hiawatha Atlantic Class A:
84 inch drivers, 300 PSI boiler pressure, 30,685 lbs tractive effort, class of 4 locomotives…
Pennsylvania Atlantic Class E6s:
80 inch drivers, 205 PSI boiler pressure, 31,275 lbs tractive effort, class of 83 locomotives…
Class A outrunning the camera shutter…
While we are on the subject of modern streamlined 4-4-2s - let’s not be parochial:
Monsieur, c’est magnifique!
The run:
Fort Wayne Historical Society brings big Berk 765, in tribute to sister 767 to the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railway. We ran from the Rockside station all the way to Akron and back in 3 hours counting a photo run at Boston Mills. There were 3 trips yesterday and the above photos show the train backing down to take on water after deboarding the morning run passengers.
The train was primarily stainless steel commuter coaches.
However there were 2 open window NKP heavyweights behind the tool car.
There was another coach between the dome and my car but even with the closed windows we could hear the whistle quite well.
It was a rainy day and my pics from the photo runs are a little dark. In fact, my best shots came as the train was backing up.
There are only a few sidings on the CVSL and most were occupied with parked equipment. Neither are there any turning facilities. So outbound from Cleveland to Akron we were steam powered (about 25 miles). On the return trip, we were die
Nice shots Becky, rain and overcast notwithstanding, you did a fine job!
Thanks for posting! Looks like a fun time was had by all.
By the way, the last Susquehanna steam excursion we rode back in the 90’s operated the same way, Mikado 142 outbound, two Suzy-Q E-units pulling inbound.
Thirty years ago, my late dad, my four year old daughter and I rode behind 765 from Brewster, Ohio to Bellevue, Ohio and back on the Wheeling & Lake Erie. Sunday, the 25th, my daughter, her three year old son and I will ride behind 765/767. Four generations of my family will have ridden behind 765. Rail fanning is good.
“Mom! 99 is blowing for 16th Street. Dad will be home soon.”
I got my tickets for this weekend. It’s always a blast when their steam in the valley.