Now that tells it like it is.
Thanks for this link. I will be carrying a copy of this in my camera case. I have never been approached, but I have had some railroad employees keeping careful eye on me in cerain areas, especially photographing trains leaving yards in Ft. Worth, TX.
Ron
In the New York area where the Homeland Security is still code Orange, they are still very jumpy about photographing certain items. The bridges and tunnels have posted signs forbidding photography. The NY MTA and the NJ Transit both considered rules forbidding photography but the public outcry was so great that they backed off on such rule changes. Sadly, some guards and law enforcement personnel believe that Homeland Security outlawed photographing trains. However, I can find no evidence of any US law or regulation to that effect. I suggest that you ask the individual to call his or her supervisor and ask for the specific legislation section that forbids your photography. Tell them you will gladly comply once they can enlighten you with the actual law since you are unaware of its existance and welcome the opportunity to be a better informed citizen. Its important to remain calm, polite, and respectful. Tell them that if they are uncomfortable with your photography, then you will leave the area and find a locality that will honor your rights to take photographs.
uspscsx, remember that the cab drivers that the railroad hires couldn’t get on with Wackenhut. tell them to screw off. Provided your not standing on railroad property!!!
What is a PDB file? When I tried to access it, Windows told me the following:
File Type: Microsoft Debug File
File Extension: .pdb
Description: This file is used by a debugger to provide rich information about the debug session.
Kent Loudon
OUCH!
It’s a Palm Database File. You clicked on the wrong link (unless you have a PDA, or “Palm”). Try the one above the image - it is a PDF file. By now most folks have downloaded the Adobe Reader, but if by chance you haven’t, www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html. It’s free.
Out in the State of Insania (sou. Calif.), in the Calif. Republic (check their flag), photographers wanting to take pics of the Metro-Stink yard were continuously accosted by a UP *** on the other side of the fence. And, routinely, an LA cop had to come by and tell him his jurisdiction ended at the fence. Of course, the LA cop is an “Official” --state hired and paid-- Officer of the Law, which according to Calif. national law, has juridiction throughout that country. now that’s a true Police State.
I put my camera away during the pause between the falling of the twin towers. Orwell was right: government doublespeak, as exemplified by the “Patriot” Act.
Just thought of something: they don’t stop anyone from taking pictures of steam excursions where they operate. Maybe they not on the national security radar–too obsolete, like a diesel submarine.
I had a cop come up to my truck one time when I was waiting for a CN train so I could take a picture. He asked me what I was doing out in the middle of nowhere with a camera. I replied that I was waiting to take a picture of the engines at the head of the train. He admonished me to stay back from the tracks and stay off of RR property and that if I did so I was fine. I thanked him so that’s my good story for this issue.
I did have an engineer yell at me once for standing on a public sidewalk and taking pics of his 2 engine consist. He actually got on radio to dispatch and backed his units far enough away from public access that I couldn’t get a decent shot. Anyone else had something like this happen?
Guys, the rules are simple:
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The First Amendment remains the fundamental law of the land.
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Unless clearly and unambiguously posted for genuine reasons of national security (e.g. the inside of an atom-bomb assembly plant), photographing anything from a public place is permissible, and no statute trumps the Constitution.
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The railroad has the right to regulate activity on its own land.
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Many stations are railroad property, even though open to the public.
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Wackenhutt Security is a private security firm; in many states, its personnel can execute arrests; however, such an arrest is no different from any other citizen’s arrest, and the executing individual, if a private person, does not enjoy any kind of judicial or quasi-judicial immunity (both he and the company can be sued for damages).
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No one is required to turn over film to anyone (even a police officer), unless he actually is under arrest – a threat of arrest is not sufficient.
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Even an actual police officer is not immune from suit for violating First-Amendment rights (18 U.S.C. sec. 242; 42 U.S.C… secs. 1983, 1985).
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Most courts have jurisdiction only over “cases” or “controversies” – there must be an actual arrest, or a civil suit, before them for the court to defend your rights.
So, show some courage, guys: The next time some self-appointed defender of the law threatens you with arrest for doing something perfectly legal, call his hand on it and tell him his alternative is to take a hike or face arrest for assault (you should call the cops, not arrest him yourself – see above). BUT, do make certain you are on public land when you do this!
As far as I know there is nothing in the Patriot Act that forbids photographing trains. For that matter I don’t know of any federal laws forbidding photographing trains from publidc property. That said if you are on public property, and a cop tells you not to photograph trains, do what he or she tells you, don’t argue, just leave. However, get their badge number, and write a letter to the mayor of the town, possibly with a copy to the town’s chief of police, to explain what happened, and send them a link to Bert Krages web site so they might be able to see for themselves.
I wonder whether the Elm Grove, WI cops who told METRO he couldn’t photograph trains from public property weren’t making up a law that doesn’t exist? Perhaps some of you who live in the Milwaukee, WI area could shed some light on whether laws banning railroad photography from public property in Elm Grove, WI actually exist…
Thank you for the Photograper’s Rights .PDF
Don’t discount the mighty diesel. Diesel/electric subs are still the quietest in the world and the Russian Foxtrot class is purpose designed to kill American nuclear aircraft carriers on lone wolf missions without being detected. Still could be kinda useful… Now I just hope the Russians don’t sell them to Iran.
haha
Cheers!
~METRO
Nice thought…except it’s too late for that. The Russians have sold the Iranians some “Kilo” class diesel electric subs that are newer and quieter than the Foxtrot class.
I had a similar experience at Tri-Rail station in West Palm Beach last June. I had my five year old son with me and we had taken the train from Ft. Lauderdale to West Palm. While waiting a the Ft. L station, a grandfather with his grandson was taking pictures of the arriving and departing trains and the local Wackenhut guy even posed for one of the photos. But after we arrived in West Palm a Tri-Rail employee accosted me while I was taking a few more photos of the locomotive and the old station with its cypress wood platform. She told me that taking photos was “against the law since 9-11” and that she had been directed to call the police. Well…I talked her out of it and did quite a bit of research afterward before learning (of course) that there is no such law. Apparently, though, the Wackenhut folks are still using this tactic.
FL Boy
ooookay, I just gotta put my two cents in & set some of this right so nobody gets hurt here.
Any city or township or whatever can draw up their own ordinanace about anything and enforce it. You can quote federal law till your blue in the face, but it wont help until the day you go to court. Until then you may be in jail.
#2. Private security people may have the right and power to DETAIN you, until the police arrive. How they do that depends on A. How their trained, B, How their equipped, and C, what measures the people who contracted with them will allow.
I personally would not want to risk giving some nimrod wannabe who couldnt qualify to be a peace officer an excuse to mace or stun or tune me up with a baton. Some of these folks are a brick shy of a full load, and it all comes down to their word against yours.
Be cool, recognize that these are weird times, and common place things in our lives are going to be different for a while till it all settles down.
I go to Cajon Pass frequently and you really have to watch your step. You are dealing with people who have been stationed out in the boonies by their selves with a cell phone and an over active imagination. You dont wanna mess with some clown who hasnt taken his meds that day. And anybody who trys to argue with a genuine cop is just asking for trouble. They arent going to back down even if you show them a copy of the U.S. Constitution. . Tke it easy out there folks. It isnt worth the trouble.
The last time I was in Altoona, I didn’t get hassled either. Most of the engineers on the Curve would blow their horns and wave. In fact, they were laughing at me when I saw them on the Curve…and then again when I beat them to the tunnels at Gallitzen 
I have been a photographer for over 45 years, and when I applied for my Copyright from the Bureau of Copyright office, they sent me a little book. It was about the rights of photographers, and it said that as long as you were in a public place, you had a right to photograph anything you wanted. All you have to do is stay on public land, and nobody can tell you to leave.
This includes bus stations, train stations, swimming pools in city parks, and railroad crossings out in the country. I also work as a conductor on a passenger train, and when we see photographers taking pictures of our train, we all wave, and smile for the camera. Some cities might have their own laws, but not all cities are the same.
You want obsolete? How 'bout the British steam powered submarines??
http://www.submarine-history.com/NOVAthree.htm
The 6th entry under 1917 begins: “Great Britian introduced the steam-powered K-CLASS…”
Anyone try writing to your U.S. Senators and/or U.S. Representative & request a copy of the: “Thou Shalt Not Photograph R R Trains Law” ???
Haven’t had any problems, but I will now be carrying these with me whenever I go photograph anything, just to prevent any hassles.
Thanks. [bow] [tup] [tup] [2c]