I’ve been doing a little research into the trains symbols running around on the CSX Dothan Subdivision (and others), and I see where some trains run “as required”. Now I know that means that the train will only run when there are enough cars to make up the entire train, OR there is a specific need to run the train (most of the trains seem to be either unit grain or coal). So I guess what I’m wondering is there any real, set, schedule for a train running “as required” as in does it run weekly, but on various days, or does it really run whenever the need comes? Also whom determines that a specific train is going to run on that “as required” schedule? Does the receiver contact the railroad and basically tell them “I need 125 grain cars in two days” and the railroad makes up a train from there, or how does it work?
Any information on this one would be greatly appreciated and would help me much more greatly understand how trains such as that operate.
On CSX schedules are established for all repetitive moves of bulk commodities…grain, coal, ore, coke, ethanol etc., between the Origin and Destination.
The schedule will be ‘manually’ initiated when there is a shipment that meets the schedules criteria. ie. Coal from Mine A to Curtis Bay. A movement of coal from Mine A to the Consol coal facility in Baltimore would have a different schedule established for it, as it has a different destination.
When there is a overflow of traffic for a regularly scheduled manifest train, a ‘S’ section of the manifest train will be operated, generally in advance of the regularly scheduled train but on an adaption of the regular trains schedule
CSX schedules are identified by a single letter, a 3 digit number along with a 2 digit number of the day in the month that the train was schedule to depart it’s origin. Regular manifest schedules are Q - L - R. The L schedule has alternate work for the train between its O-D pair. The R schedule has a alternative routing between the O-D pair. The letters A-B-C-D-F-H-J-M-O are used in the identification of Divisional local freights, work trains and road switchers. The letter E is for empty coal hopper, G is for Grain, K is for coke and ore (both loaded & empty moves), P is for Passenger. T-U-V are used in the movement of coal and may encompass a entire round trip from Mine to Consignee and return to the mine empty. W is a catchall designation for a lot of ‘special’ type movements. X is for totally extra trains, including light power movements. Y is for Yard Job. Z is for Foreign Line movements that operate on CSX trackage, depending on the various trackage agreements, the train sheets generated for Z trains may be used the the computer systems in generating the charges with the Foreign Line for the movemen
First of all, thanks Balt for your response to this one. So would it be somewhat safe to assume that on the train symbols I’ve found so far for the G and T trains operating along the Dothan Sub are quite possibly at least weekly trains, but will run on different days each week instead of a set day, on a set week. And if I’m wrong, then by all means tell me.
I’ve been slowly but surely compiling information on what trains run along the Dothan Subdivision (as I’m planning on modelling the sub on my HO scale layout) and I guess I’m trying to get an idea of how many trains I could count on operating on any given “day”. So far the most information, and seemingly most accurate information have come from either the Bullsheet or georgiarailfan. Kinda wish I could find some more up-to-date info, but I know that information like that tends to be confidential, and in no way would I want to jeapordize someone’s credibility, or job just so I can have an accurate list of trains for a model railroad.
That sort of helps me with the T-U-V designations for coal movements. Quite a few coal trains off the BNSF or UP will carry those prefixes eastbound…and also coming back empty. Could never figure that out as to why. But, some empties do not carry the same symbol. I will have to refer to my data and come up with some examples.
Also, it sure seems as if there are eastbound E trains off of the BSNF and UP. Cannot imagine these would be empties. Will check on that also.
Do the bulk commodity K trains carry a “schedule” or just simply O-D points?
Ed, Wisconsin Electric occasionally gets loaded trains from the east, somewhere on CSX (no idea why, unless it’s to get some higher-sulfur coal for whatever enviro-political reason may exist). I would assume that the empty return cars come back past you. Perhaps the empties go east (as demanded), becoming the first move of the pair.
My move last year put me within good scanner range of CSX and it has become my railscanner interest. Without seeing these train movements it is difficult to understand some of the train movements. But, that makes sense. It is difficult to understand why there would be WB movements of coal to Wisconsin, but economics no doubt play a huge role.
I’m no expert and didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but :
Eastern “thermal” bituminous coal for power plants is pretty good stuff - higher British Thermal Units per lb. and ton, and other good characteristics, like ash, etc. than Powder River Basin coal. So even if it does have more sulphur, it is likely cheaper per BTU at the coal plant than the PRB coal. Unless the power plant’s air pollution emission permit compel it to use PRB coal only to meet those limits, the plant is likely blending the coal from multiple sources to dilute the sulphur in the eastern coal with the PRB coal, while still being able to take advantage of some of the eastern coal’s lower price per BTU delivered. The plant could also be doing the same thing with other coals from other sources to adjust other characteristics, too.
Everything except Yard jobs have ‘schedule’ times in the train profile. Everything except Divisional Locals/Road Switchers/Work trains and W, X and Z trains are measured on thier performance vs. their schedule for both System and Divisional Velocity values.
Generally, it’s like CSX. Most intermodal and merchandise trains run on fixed schedules. Extra sections are generally run to handle overflow traffic. If the volume increases to the point that extras are running semi-regularly, then the operating plan is tweaked to accommodate it. 100 series train extras have an M in place of the ‘1’. An extra of 10A would be M0A. I is for 200 series trains and W for 300 series trains. Trains in the 400, 500, 600, 700, and 800 series are unit commodity trains. Most run on schedules based on a starting time, like a mine release of a loaded coal train and the train’s O/D pair. There can be extras of these trains, too, with various other letters subbing for the first numeric. The most common would be S for the 700s, and Q for the 800s.
I think NS would very much like to get to 7 to10 character train symbols like the western roads use and be able to “bake in” more info about the train into the symbol.
Interesting that the commodity trains will have schedules. Obviously there is considerable more control for originated commodity trains than those received from interline.
How much cooperation is there between other carriers on interchange of such commodity trains? I notice the PRB coal trains received from Chicago west carriers tend to show up at various times, as do the ethanol trains. Perhaps the Chicago environment has something to do with that.
It certainly would be beneficial to have schedules developed for all commodity trains. Is special consideration given to certain time zones with movements of priority trains, such as the UPS or hot intermodal trains?
BT CPSO 266: What is the difference on Norfolk Southern when it comes to “As Required” freight movements?
Generally, it’s like CSX. Most intermodal and merchandise trains run on fixed schedules. Extra sections are generally run to handle overflow traffic. If the volume increases to the point that extras are running semi-regularly, then the operating plan is tweaked to accommodate it. . . . Trains in the 400, 500, 600, 700, and 800 series
The reality of the way, at least on CSX, this all works is the the originator of the bulk load (mine, elevator etc.) tells the appropriate headquarters contact in CSX that I am going to have a trainload of product on Friday that will be destined to Z. The CSX contact will initiate a ‘Train Profile’ between the Origin and Z. The profile may state a departure time of 8 AM on 1/21 and the profile will be given it’s designation of (example only) G19521. In CSX shorthand this will be a Grain Train, profile 195 is exclusive between the designated origin and the destination of Z and it is scheduled to originate on the 21st of the month. If perchance, the origin location is able to load out two trains on one day and the second train is going to X, the profile for the second train may be G19821, where the 198 profile is exclusive between the origin and X. If we are going to load out another train between the origin and Z on Saturday it would be given the profile G19522.
The originating of any of these actual TRAINS, is dependent upon the the train actually being ready for movement. The origin may have had problems with their loading machinery and don’t have the train ready until Sunday. When the train is actually ready, the origin will notify their LOCAL CSX contact and actions will be set in motion to get power and a crew for the train. Presuming that power is available and the shipper notifies CSX at 8 AM on the 23rd that the train is ready CSX will attempt to get the crew called and on duty in the 1015-1030 area. Crew will get the power and go to the loading location and work toward getting the train ready for departure (crew could also taxi to the loading location if that is where the power is at), coupling air hoses (if necessary) performing a inspection of the cars (if the car dept. has not performed these actions) coupling the train together and performing a Class I Brake Test of
That makes sense as far as “scheduling” commodity trains. I have four months of spreadsheet listings of CSX trains with rows for trains and columns for times passed…dont ask why, it is something that I started in October.
What I wanted to know is how tight are these trains running to a schedule and in the matter of commodity trains, how frequently do they run. I am now up to about 160 rows (each train has it’s own row).
The intermodals run pretty tight. The manifest trains are usually a factor of how far from the originating terminal. For instance the Q trains out of Selkirk can vary by several hours, it is about 700+ miles from Selkirk. With intermediate set outs, etc, one would expect schedule maintaining to be difficult.
However, trains such as Q500/Q501 (Chicago - Cincinnati pairs) are pretty tight. In fact they often pass nearby around 4pm.
What is really interesting is the additional K - ethanol trains that are being added. Each week there appears to be a new train added. There appear to be more ethanol trains running these days than coal trains…the new face of energy in America.
What is so obvious is that with the regular scheduled trains at two speed levels (60/50), plus commodity trains, track work, weather conditions (signals dropping like prom dresses today), motive power issues, this all makes for interesting work for the planners, dispatchers, and marketing folks.
Scheduling of freight trains is as much an exercise in marketing as it is in operation. Any railroad needs to have a plan to operate and move certain commodities and commodities for certain customers in an organized way if only for economical use of man and horsepower. Thus such freight schedules are more a plan with options than a difinitive schedule such as with a passenger train. So you figure you are going to move 1000 units in each direction a day and you plan on say 10 trains in each direction a day. Then you may have weekly coal trains, one day to point H, another to point S, and another to point F (all from A). These might not run every week, all three might run in a given week, so you mark it up “as required: Train A2coal”. You might do the same for grain or auto parts or whatever to have in your plan, your resources, to meet the needs of a given shipper or commodity. Using names for certain services or trains is a great advertising and marketing tool while also being an operational designation either for pride or denoting a level of service or both.
BaltACD - Thanks much for that very thoughtful and comprehensive reply. It all makes sense, and I can’t think of anything else more to ask.
MP173/ Ed - That’s an interesting way of doing it*, and discerning the patterns and their causes - that all makes sense, too. With the help of BaltACD and some others, it seems you’ve gotten a long ways towards deciphering those symbols and schedules. Keep us posted on anything else you’re able to figure out. I can tell you that I recently did some work on a project in the Albany, NY area that enabled that facility - which is served by CSX - to handle longer ethanol trains, up from around 80 cars to 96 cars if I was told correctly. Perhaps that’s a partial explanation for the increase in them that you’re seeing.
Paul North.
*No need to explain why. Aside from the Sir Edmund Hilary explanation - “Because it’s there”, sometimes - like artists - we just have to do something experimental like that, and then see what the result is and where that takes us. Besides, you should see the 8, 16, and 24-hour (!) ‘train spotting logs’ that a couple fellows - mostly Josh Hollands, as I recall - have been keeping on the Norfolk Southern Pittsburgh Line above/ west of Horse Shoe Curve, usually in the Cassandra - Cresson area. They include mostly train symbols, types, and locomotive counts and numbers, but also include as separate listings the front and/ or rear rear helpers, ‘light engine’ moves, etc. They’re on the Yahoo! Groups website for the Johnstown-Altoona area, at
Interesting about the ethanol facility. Are they operational now at 96 cars?
There was a K688 on 1/19 that I could have sworn called out 400 axles, which would have placed it at 97 cars which would have fit the capacity, with the buffer car.
The K trains in the 600 series are normally ethanol (as are certain others), but with 97 cars…it did not make sense.
Quite a revenue generator for CSX. With no other method of transporting it, no doubt the margins are thru the roof.
Yes, since mid-December 2010, I’ve been told. It’s at these Lat./ Long. coords., per the “ACME Mapper 2.0” application: N 42.62533 W 73.76456 A 5th track was added on the east/ right, next to little block ‘control’ building, for the CSX locomotives to exit/ ‘escape’, as this is at the end of CSX’s line up here from Selkirk Yard. So now all the other 4 ‘original’ tracks - it was built in the early 1980’s for a GATX “TankTrain” operation, a/k/a “Oil Cans” - can now be used to unload ethanol. Someplace I heard that the 96 cars are a preferred or standard length for a CSX ethanol unit train, or maybe a ‘minimum quantity’ basis for the tariff, but I wouldn’t bet too much on that tidbit. I do hope to get back up there to photo the finished product, as soon as the snow cover melts some . . . maybe next July 4th or so . . . [:-^]