We already have remote control locomotives in railyards. At some point it will be possible to have fully automated trains run on the high iron monitored and controlled by a computer program. Grades, weight of the train, etc. can all be programmed in and the computer can adjust speed, throttle settings, brakes, etc. accordingly. Yard operations could eliminate the joystick and instead have a bean counter determine the most efficient switching pattern and let the machine run the locomotive based on his instructions.
Benefits would include:
(1) Increased capacity for existing lines. Trains could also be run much closer together because the computer would know the status of every train all the time. In theory the only limiting factor would be the physical space on the track because the computer would automatically adjust the speed of all trains simultaneously.
(2) Never having trains sit idle for lack of a rested crew.
(3) Reducing the number of train crews
Drawbacks would include:
(1) Enormous investment in new infrastructure
(2) Investment in new employees to operate the technology
(3) Legal issues of liability in grade crossing accidents, etc.
Because of the drawbacks I think this is at least 20 year away.
When will it happen? What are the obstacles (technical, financial, legal, ethical)?
Please note that I am in no way saying engineers are not doing their jobs or any other such nonsense nor that I want this to happen. I just think it is inevitable as technology advances, just like the elimination of pilots from aircraft. Incidentally, I think we will see pilots eliminated from commercial airliners before locomotive engineers are eliminated because (1) it would require less capital investment; (2) aircraft don’t ever come into contact with the general public (hopefully) other than as passengers.
Who’s gonna walk the train when it dumps the air into emergency from a break in the line? How big a pile up will occur from the trains being so close together? Who will be to blame for all this? The lone guy running all this from an office on a cell phone?
You would still need employees on the train, so why not let them operate them?
Anyway, who’s gonna wave back to the kids? An automated hand? Just doesn’t sound right.
i think it might be a bit closer then 20 years actuly…with PTC and other things coming on line… the trains might just run themselfs by remote controll or even by computer all together… if thier is a body on it at all…it will be to maual overide the computer and stop the train should the need arise…
csx engineer
We already have remote control locomotives in railyards. At some point it will be possible to have fully automated trains run on the high iron monitored and controlled by a computer program. Grades, weight of the train, etc. can all be programmed in and the computer can adjust speed, throttle settings, brakes, etc. accordingly. Yard operations could eliminate the joystick and instead have a bean counter determine the most efficient switching pattern and let the machine run the locomotive based on his instructions.
Benefits would include:
(1) Increased capacity for existing lines. Trains could also be run much closer together because the computer would know the status of every train all the time. In theory the only limiting factor would be the physical space on the track because the computer would automatically adjust the speed of all trains simultaneously.
(2) Never having trains sit idle for lack of a rested crew.
(3) Reducing the number of train crews
Drawbacks would include:
(1) Enormous investment in new infrastructure
(2) Investment in new employees to operate the technology
(3) Legal issues of liability in grade crossing accidents, etc.
Because of the drawbacks I think this is at least 20 year away.
When will it happen? What are the obstacles (technical, financial, legal, ethical)?
Please note that I am in no way saying engineers are not doing their jobs or any other such nonsense nor that I want this to happen. I just think it is inevitable as technology advances, just like the elimination of pilots from aircraft. Incidentally, I think we will see pilots eliminated from commercial airliners before locomotive engineers are eliminated because (1) it would require less capital investment; (2) aircraft don’t ever come into contact with the general public
I can see the legal ramifications already, particularly with respect to crossings and trespassers. “Operator was watching other camera” isn’t gonna fly in court. After the first few cars and pedestrians get whacked, that will be the end of that. “Did (operator) do everything in their power to prevent this tragic accident? Did the (insert RR) and (insert government) know this was a dangeous practice?”
Might as well have remote-controlled trucks. Why not?
With PTC systems and what not too far down the road, I could see that perhaps the elimination of the conductor’s job from through road freights, but I would say the railroads would be hard-pressed to be able to eliminate the engineer’s position (even if a computer is actually doing most of the operation) for safety reasons.
One safety concern that has not been addressed in this post yet, that I think you would be hard-pressed to get a computer system to detect prior to derailing the train, are sun kinks. Admittedly if the rail was physicially broken (severed), that could probably be detected because the signal circuit has been broken, but that is not the case with a sun kink where the track has unexpectedly been shifted out of alignment but still intact [xx(].
It could happen in some parts of this country where the terrain,the crossings and the communications aren’t factors.But less face it the biggest outcry will be from the public.I work as an engineer in an area of the counrty that this could never take place.Heck we go into tunnels and loose radio as well as E.O.T.D. responce now as it is.Put a 10,000 plus ton train going down the tracks and loose communiction for a few seconds and all heck could break loose.It also isn’t financialy possible anytime soon for most railroads.40% of U.S. railroads run in dark territory according to the FRA.That means no way to decect a train or stop it with onboard auto control stop systems.I work on a territory that’s 100% signaled on the mains,and 50% or so on auxillary lines.And this still couldn’t happen because of the factors mentioned.
I have had many an argument with my non railfan friends about this, and whatever I said (A lot of it is along the same lines) they come back with a response, this one:“Put detecctors on the front of trains linked to the brake in case there’s someone on the tracks” hmm, now THAT would be expensive! Probably cheaper to keep the engineers. Plus, I don’t think OUR government would let that happen, there are too many jobs in the rail industry. (Not a Bush insult, not a political statement)
Not only the government (particularly the FRA over safety concerns), but I am sure that even if the labor unions allowed the elimination of the conductor’s position on through freights (albeit that won’t happen without a heck of a fight either), they will NEVER… I repeat NEVER go for crew-less trains… have you ever seen a RR labor union official on the unemployment line [B)] ??
I live in Germany, where the engineer of the high-speed ICE train only needs to run on manual control when threading into or out of a station. Otherwise, he basically just monitors the on-board systems. In Nuremburg they started testing commuter trains with no engineer, though it will be a few years (2 or 3) before the Federal Transportation Ministry gives its approval.
Sounds like Jim thinks the unemployment rate is a problem. Well, the latest Labor Dept. figures peg the rate at 5%. That is one of the best (lowest) rates in history. It is only one of many indicators of the economic boom we enjoy. No nation in history has been so rich, so productive, so employed, so well off. Some economists fear that the unemployment rate is too low. Too low a rate drives wage inflation, which may at first glance look good, but is corrosive for the economy. I am not in favor of unmanned trains, but if it ever happens there will be jobs available for those displaced railroaders who need them. We survived the change from steam to diesel and we will weather the changes to come.
It would definitely be a sad day for all of America.
I actually hope it doesn’t happen either but know that I can’t turn back the clock.
Track conditions would have to be continously monitered. ie. Every inch of track would have to be wired to transmit rail temperature, moisture levels, etc. back to central control and the programs running the trains so that minimum safe stopping distances can be calculated. I agree that the visual aspect is still a difficult hurdle.
Any system can be made reasonably secure by isolating it from the outside. It’s a trade off between convenience of networking with the outside world and security. In this case the benefits of isolating the system would probably outweigh the loss of convenience and utility.
Keep in mind this would be a totally automated system. You wouldn’t have to rely on guys watching cameras just someone to monitor the systems to make sure they are functioning properly and backup engineers to rescue a train in need.
The key word is trespass. Anytime you trespass you risk death or serious bodily injury and have no one to blame but yourself. Although I suspect the courts are not as sensible about
Black Mesa & Lake Powell - automated operation with GeneralElectric E 60 electrics 1973 (apparently by 2000 when the pictures on this web site were talen they were no longer crewless) http://www.trainweb.org/southwestshorts/bmlp.html
I am certain that through train crews will be down to one person within ten years. I don’t see crewless trains coming in anytime in the future unless totally grade-separate ROW are available.
what can a crew do now other then blow the horn and ring the bell…and hit the emegancy brakes… wouldnt be any differnt from a guy running it from a cam at a computer… the us military is flying aircraft by cams… why not a train…
also…
on the trucks
they are working on that too…they have projects in the works now where when you get in your car you program the route and destiantion…and the car drives itself…or you can drive it manualy… they have been testing this techology in calforian for a few years now with cars that have radar and computer systems that alow the car to keep space between vehiclas as well as maintaine speed and stay in the lanes without the driver putting any imput in at all… the atiment cruses controll…so why not adopt it to trucks too…IT TO IS COMEING!!!
csx engineer