I am wanting to convert a couple of old Trix locomotives (2230 and 22401) to DCC with sound. Do you have any recommendations for the parts needed that would be appropriate for early steam era German locomotives, including the decoder and speaker? This is my first time doing anything like this, but excited to dive in!
Or if I am insane for trying such a conversion, that would be helpful, too!
Thanks in advance!
If they are German locomotives, I would strongly consider ESU Loksound, as they would be most likely to have the appropriate sound file for any of the European steam & diesel locomotives. They also offer speakers and enclosures.
As a side note, while ESU sound file offerings are still fairly limited for US steam, the number of US diesel sound files is quite good.
Tom
Hi,
you could pick up some easier task for the first sound install[:D]
I refer to Glaskasten (22401), it is a very small locomotive, but it can be done! Considering it is Trix model, there is more space than for example in the same model from Roco - there you would have to remove some material from weight and that is difficult (grinding needed).
Here you can read nice discussion on which decoder to use (and sound file), and how to do it (in German, but use Google translattor). It is related to Marklin version, but Trix version should be the same. At the end, there is a video of finished conversion:
https://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=168798
Basically, you can choose from two decoders: ESU Loksound Micro, or Doehler&Haass SD10A-3 (little cheaper). Sound file (together with chosen decoder should be ordered from Leosoundlab. List of available sounds can be found here.
I suggest you write to Leosoundlab, describe exactly your locomotive, because they have two sounds to offer, I am not an expert which one is more appropriate. I would avoid in this case ESU original sound file. Leosoundlab on the other hand has excellent sound recordings.
For the other locomotive, I think there is more space available, so install should be easier. I converted it to DCC for my friend, but without sound. It is doable, although this locomotive has old motor which cannot provide smooth running as current motors can. But even with original motor, it can run reasonably. For the sound file, I do not have any idea - I am not sure if any orignal recording exist. For decoder, considering the old motor, I would use ESU in any case. Unfortunatelly, I do not remember which decoder I chose, but if there is enough place, I recommend ESU Lokpilot (if withou
Tom, thank you so much! this is very helpful!
wow, thank you so much, Hrvoje! Will look into it! You have gone above and beyond, this is so very helpful, especially the second update!
I hope I did help you, but I would recommend to convert this beautiful locomotive at least to DCC without sound, if sound install is too complicated for you (I think, instead of grinding, you just need to cut some weight with saw (and afterwards, little filing is needed) to get place for decoder and a speaker - this is easier than grinding). Trix Glaskasten has excellent drivetrain (better than Roco I have), so it is a pity not to have it in operation, if you operate your trains DCC.
I would also test this locomotive with any ESU Lokpilot (V4, or V5) if you have it at hand or can borrrow it, and decide if ESU is really not good for that motor. I say this because in linked discussion above, it is claimed that ESU Lokpilot micro did not work well with this locomotive. According to my experience, ESU really excels with such older motors (three pole, strong cogging - like this Trix motor). The problem is that you must take some time to figure out set of CV values related to motor control which are the best for certain motor (I know ESU also offers automatic tuning for motor control, but I never accomplished so good results, as those established manually). You just need to be patient and write down CV value each time you change certain CV, and observe movement. This can last for hours, if you are picky when it comes to smooth running of a locomotive (especially starting and stopping, and slow speed).
I do not say Zimo is not excellent option too, but I assume, if you live in the USA, it is easier for you to buy ESU than Zimo (for non sound conversion, for sound, I would use D&H or ESU shipped from Europe with appropriate Leosoundlab file uploaded).
In my Glaskasten (Roco), I replaced the motor with coreless one, because Roco motor was too loud, required to be lubed very frequently and the most important, was not able to give so
I used the automatic motor turning feature of a Loksound Select micro decoder on a brass F-M H20-44 switcher that ran erratically and it smoothed it right out. Even with the poor & noisy gear towers that came with the locomotive, it achieved 0.25 sMPH at speed step 001; night and day compared to how it was running prior to the adjustment.
Tom
Tom,
of course that automatic tuning can help, but for the best results, I always rely on what I do personally with decoder settings. I would not be surprised that with Trix Glaskasten mentioned on German forum above, it is very possible to get reasonable running results, just if someone has at least some experience with CVs related to motor control, and little patience.
On the other hand, I have much better experience with Zimo decoders than with ESU when it comes to very slow, fine starting of the locomotive (transition from stop (speed step 0) to movement (speed step 1)), and of course, stopping. Even the most recent ESU decoder (V5) cannot beat Zimo in that part. ESU simply starts like a rabbit compared to ZIMO in the same locomotive, no matter what you do with CV’s (not only those related to motor control, but also inertia and speed curve (CV 3, CV 4, CV 5 and CV 6)). Of course, for such nice, realistic start of locomotive movement a perfect, lubed drivetrain is required (no binding in gears, worms, linkage etc.), and fine motor. My experiences are mostly based with such locomotives (Roco, Fleischmann), and coreless motors which I installed in them (one example here, another here). Therefore in most of my “mute” locomotives I chose Zimo (MX 600) over ESU. Additionaly, the price (and size) of ZIMO MX 600 are of advantage - it costs usually 18-19 Euro per piece, ESU Lokpilot V4 at least 24 Euro. Also, it is very thin (all electronic components are on just one side). In Roco Glaskasten I chose ESU Micro because it is very small, and such Zimo is even more costly than ESU (and it was at hand, too - so why not use it).
But with old motors - ESU wins always, ZIMO could never achieve what ESU can with such motors, at least that is my experience. One of good examples are Trix motors in older locomotives (before DCC era), which are usually three pole,
So much information! For this newbie, it is really appreciated!
Hrvoje, do you do conversions for other people? If so, what would you charge for parts and labor? I would go along with the systems you prefer, however, I would like sound and am willing to pay the extra and be patient with your efforts!
Hi Hrvoje,
I have a Loksound V3.5 installed in a Trix Mike (coreless) and several Loksound V3.5 or Select decoders installed in diesels (non-coreless) from a variety of manufacturers. Every one of them starts and crawls <1 sMPH and mostly 0.5 sMPH or better. And that’s without me doing anything with CV2, CV5, or CV6.
While I do not have any experience with ZIMO decoders, I can’t see it improving on ESU a whole lot more in motor-control. Maybe it’s the locomotives I have the Loksound decoders installed in?
I do appreciate the info on the differences between the ZIMO and ESU decoders in regards to price, size, and component distribution (one side). I see that there is at least one US distributor for the ZIMO decoders. Maybe I’ll give one of their non-sound decoders a try sometime and compare it with my go-to motor-only decoder manufacturer, TCS. For the ZIMO sound decoder, it will be contingent on what US locomotive sound files they have available.
Tom
Tom,
the statement on starting difference between ESU and Zimo is my own impression, after several motor installs in different locomotives. It may be wrong - because, it is based on my personal observation of locomotive movement in very short, but for me, important sequence. Especially with steam locomotives, a very slow, soft movement of locomotive linkage is important - it gives you an impression as hundreds of tons start to move, and not a model (or, toy for some). In everyday use, such difference may be insignificant for most of users, I admit that. Btw, it is not the speed at speed step 1 I am pointing out - I am pointing out how fast locomotive starts to move from standing still to SS1. I think it has something to do with alghoritm that certain decoder uses to regulate motor.
If I can maybe explain this on example that is easier to understand. If you have a plain, old fashion light bulb, and ordinary switch, when you press the switch, light comes instantly. If you install switch with a dimmer, no matter how fast you turn the switch potentiometer, light will come “gradually”. ESU is “ordinary switch”, Zimo is “dimmer”, when discussed transition from SS 0 to SS 1. Of course, starting of a locomotive also depends on gear ratio, and motor RPM. If ratio is low, and motor fast, then locomotive will start “like a rocket”.
As already could be concluded from what I wrote above, each decoder has its advantages and disadvantages. For example, I had a decoder install in my friend’s Fleischmann ICE (fast speed train). It has old fashion three pole pancake motor. This kind of motor is one of several reasons why Fleischmann at the end was taken over by Roco - it missed to go with technological progress. It is sturdy, durable, but also very noisy and difficult (sometimes) to be regulated by decoder. In mentioned train of my friend, I had really a hard time to get it to run in a manner which can be described as reasonable. Of course, I used E
Hrvoje,
What you are describing sounds a lot like the hesitation between the “brake release” and speed step 001. On the Loksound decoders I have installed in my steam & diesels, by default* - there is a 2-3 sec. delay before the locomotive begins to move, which I know you can adjust - increase, decrease, or turn off - with CV 124. *[CV124 = 4]
Pressing F8 for a steam locomotive, you actually hear the “Whshhhhhh” of the brake release then the locomotive starts off. With a diesel the prime mover begins to rev up before the locomotive moves. And, increasing the momentum for either would also add to that delay.
So, is that what you are referring to? I love that feature and wish other manufacturers (like TCS) would include it with their sound & motor-only decoders.
Tom
The start delay can fool some people. Oh, it’s not actually moving on step 1 - so they turn it up to step 2 or 3, at which point the start delay expires and it leaps into motion at step 2 or 3, not step 1 which it is totally capable of.
Zimo motor only decoders are available in the US, a friend of mine uses them occasionally in his N scale locos, as they have the smallest motor decoder around (or at least readily available, although one of the Digitrax Z scale decoders may now be smaller).
But like Tom, I’ve been more than happy witht he lack of jack rabbit starts with ESU (or TCS for that matter). Both of the seem to me to start any loco I have them in very smoothly. Replacing the v3.5 in my steam locos with a v5 will probably greatly improve the performance. My latest loco came factory equipped with a v5, and if I go from 0 to step 1, it will gently start creeping tie by tie, no sudden jump. And I have yet to fire off the auto BEMF calibration, that’s just out of the box. I haven’t read it, but I think there is a non-zero momentum as well, which helps.
I set up enough track to run some locos on my bench - 3 pieces of flex and a Peco #5. Been playing with the Drive/Hold on the v5, pretty neat both ways - revving up the prime mover while the loco is barely moving, and also prime move at idle while the loco is moving at track speed. It’s not completely different than what I was doing by putting a decent amount of momentum in the decoder, but it’s also completely flexible and works on slowing down as well. I need to dig out my locos with v4 and Selects in them and flash the firmware to add Drive/Hold. Once I build my new test track on the new bench.
–Randy
You guys are really being fantastic and helpful - thank you! There are so many options and ways to do this. I am a complete novice and I am seeing words and phrases that might as be greek to me!
Would any of you do such a conversion using your preferred method for a fee? It seems that other than a soldering iron and multimeter, I don’t even have some of the equipment to perform such surgery, let alone the technical know how.
No Tom, this is not the case with Zimo motor only decoders - I just simply decribed what I noticed as a little different behaviour when locomotive starts to move, compared to ESU decoders. It is not a special feature - I think it is related more to software that is used for motor control. It also may be, as I alreday noted, my personal impression (in fact, it is). I am not saying even that Zimo is better than the ESU, maybe just, that I like more Zimo in that part. And the price and dimension, of course.
One disadvantage of Zimo motor only decoders is that they still do not have braking function (as opposed to Zimo sound decoder). I wrote to Zimo few years ago, they replied it will be included in some future firmware update, but as far I know, until now it did not. So, if you have a consists of two or more locomotives, and one has Zimo sound decoder, other(s) Zimo motor only decoder, you cannot use braking function (which I like very much in all sound decoders). So, Zimo also have to catch up in some areas.
Randy, I am sure that you are very satisfied with all your ESU decoders - they have excellent motor control for a very long time. I have Trix GG1 with ESU Loksound 2.0 (I think), and it runs perfectly.
Hrvoje