Trying to follow a prototype

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

I now understand the good and bad of trying to follow a prototype. I have been thinking about which Railroad I would like to model. I wanted to model a line in Minnesota that wasn’t UP, BSNF, or CP. So the search began!

I looked at DMIR, but with no room for a mine, big hill, harbor, I decided to look else where. Next came the idea for Great Northern. I like the paint scheme on their F7. Then I realized that an F7 was one of the only loco’s I could find specifically for Great Northern. Next up was CNW, this is the railroad I grew up watching. I hate the colors, maybe that has something to do with not liking the Packers. In the end, I decided to choose the Milwaukee Road. This was one of the major railroads that went through Mankato MN, my home town.

The line I’m choosing was ripped up in 1978. This track was 100 yards away from my house. It’s now a bike trail that runs along the river valley and up the bluff to farmland and small towns. I guess there use to be passenger service from Mankato out to the surrounding towns. Freight in the form of grain was sent down the bluffs to Mankato to either be sold, or shipped up to Minneapolis to the flour mills. I think I’ve found my perfect project.

I’ve come to realize that I need to set myself a standard for how closely I want to follow the prototype. This is a little intimidating for someone who is better at general ideas than details. I don’t think I’m going to find that much information on the internet. This line wasn’t exactly the pride of the Railroad! One good thing about modeling this area is it’s where I grew up. We use to ride our bicycles down the Right-of-way before it became a paved trail. If I need pictures of the landscape, I can jump in the car and take the pictures I need.

The thing that got me thinking about this area was a trestle that we use to walk ac

2

It is great when you find and decide what you want to model in the way of a prototype railroad, location, and era.

Q: Do I try to get everything perfect?

A: I take the proto-lance approach in my rendition of the Piedmont Division of the Southern and Norfolk Southern layout set in the 1980’s to 1990’s merger era, and in the fall. My track plan is not taken exactly from any actual existing or past existing track segments but it does follow a close enough representation of the area that I am comfortable with in modeling for my layout. While my layout will follow prototypical operations and such, the track plan is not at all an exact replica of the prototype and is more freelanced in that respect. Same with the scenery and land forms, I will approximate the scenery of the Piedmont area in central North Carolina, but I am not terra forming specific hills or mountains, I am freelancing the look and feel of them. When people ask me what era I model I tell them something like October 24th, 1988…plus or minus 20 years…

Q: General flavor of the area and the railroad?

A: Yes, that is what I am doing, a general look and feel that renders what the SR and NS felt like and looked like in the 80’s and 90’s.

3

I losely model the UP in northern Utah. What inspired me was the power used in the area and one scene that I tried to duplicate. I only had passing images of the scene to reference from a couple of videos, so I took the key eliments and embelished the rest.

I model N scale and my layout is an L configuration, 10’ X 14’. The short leg of the L is where I put my key scene, what I refer to as my railfan area.

I guess what I’m trying to say is, pick what you like about the area and model that. If you’re into operation, pick an area with switching. If railfanning is your thing put several scenes together or as I did, mix it up alittle.

The trestle scene would be awesome and not too difficult to reproduce. It wouldn’t have to be exact, you could compress the scene to fit your space and still have the flavor of the prototype.

4

Hi, Corey!

Like Ryan, I also “protolance” with a little twist: I model 1972 BN Indianhead division in No. Wis.( the Packers remark kinda hurt![sigh]).The twist is it’s theCNW(ex-Omaha Road) ROW from Spooner to Eau Claire.It’s out my backdoor (trail now, tho) so it is easy to check details,bridges etc.I like the roads that merged to form the BN hence the choice, I can run a variety of engines.The story is the BN bought the ROW for a Minneapolis bypass from Duluth to Chicago.

That bridge could be a center piece of your layout. I tend to go with the general feel thing, although I have the actual blueprint type track plans for the towns along the way and try to model the actual track as it was. That way I don’t have to guess what went where and why!

Good luck and keep us posted.

Terry in Sarona, Wis.

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Thanks for the replies guys. I’m thinking I can start out at a rural town with a small passenger depot and grain elevator. Once the descent begins down the valley there are no online industries until you reach Mankato. The prototype grade in 1.3%, I may have to increase that. The trestle is in between the two destinations. Most of the trip is through Maple covered river valley, which will allow me to do my thing with scenery. Just past the depot in Mankato is Hubbard Milling, a large, riverside grain terminal. I believe there was an interchange with Union Pacific downtown as well.

I have to build this in sections to accomodate my soon to be living arrangement. I think I’ll build it as a point to point with the option of adding a section or two down the road for continuous running. Now I have to decide which era I want to model this in. I have up until 1976 or so. The line wasn’t used the last couple of years. Does anyone have any idea how I find out which locos and rolling stock were used for any given time period? Like I said earlier, this wasn’t exactly the most famous route of the Milwaukee Road.

6

My previous layout was a pretty close approximation of the B&O/WM line that ran through Morgantown West Virginia in the 1950’s. There were lots of photos and track diagrams. Tehre was even as a layout design published in Model Railroad Planning done by my good friend Eric Hannsman. I had enough room to to a pretty good job of following the track diagrams and in operations were based on what we had learned about traffic through the region at that tiem period. I even had a model of the WVU field house where they played basketball in the background.

Since moving to Nevada my interests have changed to the southern Nevada mining railroads of the turn of the century. Information is much more limited and accurate track diagrams are very difficult to find. Libraries and the internet have been exhausted trying to find information. I also have much less room for this layout. As a consequence the track design is much more of a compromise. For example I do not have room for turning wyes which were commonly used in the area. I am using turntables even though the only one in the whole region was in Goldfield. I am adding more mines and activity than the prototype simply make operations more interesting. Finally, even though it will represent the Tonopah and Tidewater RR, I am going to run Las Vegas and Tonopah engines and V&T engines on this layout sometimes simply because I like those roads. - Nevin

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Time, money and space are usually the three limiting factor to all modeling projects. By picking a specific RR and location, you will save some money by concentrating on what ran there. The protolancing concept is very good. I too am planning my future layout (the house covering it is almost done) and I’m looking to capture specific sights or locations that will give it the proper feel without sticking to exact tack layout and details down to the last light fixture on the depot. Since you really like the bridge and the depot, concentrate on how you can model/capture them.

I would definately suggest the Milwaukee Road Historical Society as they will have a wealth of information. You can also get maps (Sanborn) of the area, the local county historical societies may have info pictures as well.

Rick Keil

Wichita, KS

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I follow a prototype pretty closely (the Sacramento Northern) and have done a pretty close to insane amount of research, including reading every book on the subject, doing a lot of archival research, trackwalking, photography of the right of way, talking with former employees, visiting museums that have their equipment, and more.

My level of research is probably an example of going too far, to the point where I have started writing my own books and articles, volunteer for railroad museums, and have gone back to graduate school in history. This is probably more than any model railroader actually has to do, and in many ways it has proven very counterproductive: I spend so much time researching, writing and volunteering at museums that it has severely hampered the amount of time I spend working on the layout!

On the layout itself, I use the actual track maps for inspiration and as a basis for design, but I don’t replicate them strictly. I shoot more for feel than total accuracy. The prototype, an electric interurban turned dieselized short line, was characterized by lots of sharp curves, street running, and maze-like switching in industrial areas, contrasted with long stretches of straight runs through very flat valley terrain. Tightening curves and shortening sidings to meet my rather snug space requirements helps replicate the feel in HO scale, without slavishly duplicating the real thing.

The other place where feel is important is in structures and scenery. I am modeling the town where I live, so I can get up close to some of the buildings I am modeling, but others have been gone for decades and, for the most part, nobody saw fit to take a photo of many of the buildings I want to model. But I can approximate the buildings in feel, scope and purpose, so that’s the course I take with my modeling.

Finally, in terms of motive power and rolling stock, I try for accuracy but don’t worry too much if I don’t hit the mark. I have a couple of custom

9

As I ave written many times on this forum, the research is the hard part. In my case, modeling the New Haven in the transition erea, I am over 50 years and 2,000 miles away. I have, however, the advantage of having lived near, and ridden on the New Haven for over 30 years, so I have a big advantage over someone who has never experienced the operation of the prototype.

In your case, you at least have the benefit of having observed the railroad in action and also can now cover the ROW to get the feel of the terrain. In the mid sixties, I visited the area including Rochester and Mankato so I am somewhat familiar with what you are describing.

Before designing a track plan I recommend that you learn as much as you can about operations in the era you are contemplating modeling. One of the biggest helps to my modeling of the New Haven is the ability to get the actual track schematics or photos so that I can model the actual scenes as closely as possible. The result being that I can operate the local freight trains very close to reality. Reality, is so much better, because one’s imagination is no subsitute for it

That said, of course you can’t duplicate everything, but you can include enough so that anyone observing the finished product will instantly recognize it for what it is. Believe me, it will make you happier too.

Since Mankato was in the center of a vast expanse of farm land, I would suggest that you make it the focal point, or centerpiece, and make it is accurate as is reasonable to do.

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I’m a newbie and maybe I don’t pull the same weight as the more experienced modelers, but here goes.

My method is getting the general flavor and not getting into the nitty gritty details. I think this will allow me to freelance and put a personal touch on it. I will spend much of my time just enjoying this with family and friends so the discriminating modeler will never see it anyway. After all, I just want to play trains, not care if my buildings are totally correct or if the marking on my loco’s are exact.

Just my 2 cents worth.

11

I suspect you are talking about Wells, MN to Mankato, MN line? From your pictures, it appears that it is of the Rapidan bridge(one of the reasons the line was abandoned). That deport picture is actually the CMO/C&NW depot in Mankato. The joint Milwaukee/CGW depot was a few blocks away. At one time the Milwaukee also had a line from Farmington, MN that came in frome the North(via CGW trackage rights). The Milwaukee and CGW had a joint engine service area a few blocks North of the C&NW depot(they crossed the C&NW just North of the present depot). Part of the line is still in place north of Wells, MN and serves some agri-business related industries a couple of towns North of Wells, MN.

The Milwaukee Road ran a lot of ‘lightweight’ SD7/9’s on these lines. I remember seeing a ‘Wells Turn’ dropping down the hill into Mankato in 1972. IIRC, the line was taken out of service the next year, and ripped up later(your date sonds about right). The line to Farmington had flooding problems every spring and it did not last much longer. The Milwaukee ran trains over the C&NW from St Paul for a while before giving any remaining business to the C&NW.

I am not sure when passenger service ended, but there was a mixed train out of Austin, MN that ran to Wells, and then up to Mankato. I have seen pictures of it with Alco RSD5’s for power and on of those rib-side branchline combines just behind the power. Since the SD7’s did not arrive until 1952 and the RSD5’s did not arrive until 1953; that mixed train must have lasted into the mid 50’s. Back in the early 70’s I was rail-fanning those lines and found the agent ‘sweeping’ the platform at Wells. I suspect he was the original agent from the 50’s and after talking with him he told me that the passenger trains do not stop any more, but he was just used to ‘sweeping’ the platform eve

12

My Yuba River Sub is a ‘protolance’ “What If” layout–what if the D&RGW had actually built a California Extension from Salt Lake to Oakland that was NOT the Western Pacific? Okay, the premise is far-fetched, but it’s an excuse to re-create the area in which I grew up–the Yuba River watershed in the Sierra Nevada mountains around Nevada City, Downieville, Sierra City and Yuba Summit. No railroad ever went through that particular area, but I ‘imagineered’ one coming off of Yuba Pass and running between the three forks of the Yuba River toward Nevada City. It’s given me an excuse to run my favorite steamers (Rio Grande) and also the possibility of interchange and shared trackage with my second favorite railroad (Southern Pacific).

So if the premise is fiction, the planning and building of the layout follows prototypical practice as far as locomotives, rolling stock, period buildings (the layout is set during WWII) and the typical geology of the Northern Sierra Nevadas at an elevation of between 3000 and 6000 feet. Now I could have gone for Tennessee Pass in Colorado, but I’m not a native Coloradan, and I could have gotten it all wrong, even if I visited there frequently. But this way I can have my favorite railroad in my favorite setting, even if it ‘never happened’ in real life.

Tom

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[#ditto]IOne of my local tavern buddies was an Engineer on the Omaha Road here. He does’nt like that I’m running BN on “his” division, but it’s my layout,right!!?He is a wealth of info, tho!

Terry

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This process is entirely new for me. My first layout was as far away from prototypical as possible. The only thing realistic was the era. Even that was fudged a little. I’m going from a loop de loop 4x8 to an around the walls shelf layout. I think I could be quite accurate with this new adventure if I want to. I have to take selective compression into account though. The distance between towns and the size of Mankato will be severely compressed. The thing I like about a shelf layout is the possibilities of using backdrops. I will gain quite a bit of depth with the right pictures or paintings. I never thought following a real railroad’s past would be so exciting. Part of the enjoyment is having a clear vision of what I want. Trying to create a vision on the fly lead to major work stoppages on the first try. Now I need to figure out how to translate this vision to a sectional shelf layout. Thank you to everyone for your comments and advice. If there is anything more that I should think about, please let me know. I’m trying to not make as many mistakes on this layout.

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Build in series of 2x4, 4x8, and in squares. instwant sectional, but versitle enough pieces to do almost anything you want.

ALso, find a good track plan software. Atlas’ RTS is easy to start with and free. a good variety of stuff. But not some gimmiks like running, and terrain that others have.

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Jim, I don’t know how I read this thread and missed your post. Thank you so much for this bit of information. I have been reading a bit online and realized that the depot is in fact the C&NW. They also had a turntable east of the downtown area towards Sibley Park. I guess I will be proto-lancing after all. Oh well, the cobbled together story will make for some fun modeling. The time line you gave gives me a good idea of when I can model. I was thinking of modeling the late forties so I can use older steam and smaller diesels. If you have any more tidbits of information I’m all ears. Thanks again.

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The Milwaukee did use the C&NW depot for a while from what I have found. Eventually the Milwaukee and CGW built their own depot a few blocks away. They built their joint engine facilities north of the C&NW depot. That turntable/roundhouse south of the C&NW depot is the old ‘Omaha’ roundhouse from what I have found.

The Milwaukee’s line from Farmington came in from the north. It paralleled the Northwestern from Kasota and crossed the Northwestern at Benning. Just to the south of there it joined the CGW line that came down the hill and crossed the C&NW. The present line up the hill to Winona is the old CGW. The original ‘Winona & St Peter’ line up the hill was removed in the early 70’s and a line relocation was done to connect up the remaining pieces.

Somewhere I have an old ‘station map’ of parts of Mankato, and one can still see the track alignment through town for the Milwaukee. I will be at the Woodbury and La Crosse flea markets. Let me know if you will be at either and I will copy the track layout for you and bring it along.

Jim

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Jim, I may be in transition around those dates. We’re moving to Shakopee soon. I just don’t know when. If I think I’ll make it to either show, I’ll let you know. Thanks for the offer and other information. It’s funny to hear somebody on here talk about my home town. Most people are from ‘somewhere else’!

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Any way you go, you’d be protolancing anyway. There’s just not an easy way to compress the mainline. Sounds like you have a good plan

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Thanks for the words of encouragement. I have some reading to do! At least I can start to map out the track coming from the farmland. I’ll have to figure out which trackage to model in town. I may use C&NW’s depot since it’s still standing. Onward and upward.