Hi all
Thats strange I did not know of another speed for yard work other than very slowly.
Which is why in a tight space you can get away with tighter points in a yard elctro frog’s really come into there own in a yard with tight points and short wheel base locomotives steam or diesle
regards John
Hi RR Telg,
Ok T, me brain wasn’t working. How about going on the Peco site and downloading and printing a few templates onto photo card and checkout what fits.
Be in touch.
Pick.
As I mentioned previously, I tried to run a 6-axle diesel as slowly as possible through a #4 yard turnout and couldn’t do it. I finally pulled out the #4 turnout and replaced it with a #6 turnout. Trying to run 85’ box cars through the #4 turnout was no picnic either.
Rich
Rich,What #4s was you using? A long 6 axle locomotive can go around a 22" not pretty to look at but,I’ve seen it…
Atlas had several sizes of #4s over the years as you will recall…The current Custom Line #4 seems to work better with larger cars and 6 axle engines…Of course the “snap switch” is better suited for trolley and interurban cars but,like 18" curves they can be workable with the use of common sense in the selection of engines and cars…
Rich,Know and understand many of us builders of small layout and small ISL doesn’t have the luxury of using a #6 switch because of space restraints so we use #4s and we have learn lessons many may not understand or care to.
Ever see a snap switch crossover? Not repeat not recommended for anything larger then switchers and 40’ cars and then use only if absolutely needed.Terrible at best…
Larry, the #4 in question is an Atlas Custom Line #4 (stamped @1997) that I purchased back in 2004 when I first got into HO scale.
This whole conversation seems to fly in the face of what I recall as conventional wisdom about trying to run longer rolling stock and 6 axle diesels, forget about most steamers, through #4 turnouts. Not because it doesn’t look prototypical, but because there is a tendency to derail due to the tight radius of the divergent track on a #4 turnout.
Is my recollection faulty?
I knew about the limitations of a #4 turnout when I recently constructed a 4-track diesel servicing facility, but I came up one #6 turnout short so I installed a #4 turnout leading into the first ladder track. But, I simply could not get 6-axle diesels to negotiate the
Ahh,that puts a new light on the subject…Those was a tad shaper then the newer #4s.
Of course there’s a slight difference between #4 in C83,Custom Line C100, and plain C100 as well…The #4s in my photo is Custom line C83 #4s.
Larry, just to clarify, it was an Atlas Code 83, Custom Line, #4, circa 1997, turnout.
Rich
Rich,
I have the exact same ones that you are talking about and all of them had to be tweaked, they have to be filed at the points so that are a better fit at the stock rail and they have to be set,then CA on the throw bar, so they don’t move. I had to do that on everone that I have, now I don’t have a problem. As a matter of fact, I just took one out of the package,that I have extras of and one side of the points, came out of the throw bar. Atlas HO code 83 custom-line #4 #562.
Cheers, [D]
Frank
Frank,This is the reason I decided to use Peco medium switches on Slate Creek…I haven’t seen any of the newer Atlas switches that didn’t need tweak…
I’d like to go back to the basic issue of running 6-axle diesels and 85’ or longer rolling stock through a true #4 turnout. Can it be consistently done without derailments?
Rich
Now,let’s dig deeper first.
A shorter 6 axle locomotive like the SD7/9 RSD12,RSD 4/5,SD35,SD24 shouldn’t have any issues with #4s since these will negotiate a 18" curve.
A BB SD40-2 or any BB C-C unit shouldn’t have any issues on #4s either since they will negotiate a 18" curve.This goes for the Bachmann SD40-2 as well.
Longer wheel base 6 axle units will go through the Custom Line C83 #4 switch at restricted speed because of the more gentle diverging route .
My lessons learned.
Side to side wheel play and coupler swing plays a part in negotiating a switch or sharp curve.The manufacturers designed it that way.
Different sizes of #4 switches from various manufacturers.Took me a long time to see the difference in design and curvature of the diverging route.
Snap switch crossovers will work but,should be avoid.
In HO or N one should always use the largest switch possible but,for us that don’t have that luxury use a #4 with a gentle diverging route.Use snap switches as a last resort.
It’s important to bear in mind that there’s a difference between what will run through a switch pulling and trying to shove a string of cars into a yard (espcailly with truck-mounted couplers as in N scale). Also, as I noted before, the Atlas “#4” is actually a #4 1/2.
One way to overcome that is to body mount MT #1015-1-B coupler.Also as you know some manufacturers are waking up and body mounting the couplers on their newer releases.
I never had issues with MT or Atlas/Accumate couplers on my N Scale switching layouts other then MT’s normal slinky effect…Of course I operated at scale switching speeds and not at Mach 5 speeds like many do.I have no doubts you have seen that as well.
From my own experience after tweaking the old #4’s, I can run a lash-up of four BB box SD40-2’s into a #4 IND.siding along with pushing two 89ft Intermodel flats without a problem,but not a warp speed and I don’t have any #4’s on my double track mainline, they are all #6’s that come off the main with a lead to a #4 and also some wyes which are as small as #4’s, but I have the room to do that though. I also if you look at the #4 you took off Rich, you will notice the deverging route the point side is straight, I put a little bend in them, to match the small curve going into the frog and that helped considerably. A little work and they work, sticker price 10.75, why not?
Cheers, [D]
Frank
Around here we call it “Tyco-ing in the Yard”. It’s an epidemic.
I like my solution better.
I took out the Atlas #4 and threw it in a drawer, replacing it with a Peco that fit right into its place.
Now, my BLI E6s, E7s, and E8/9s all come into and out of the diesel servicing facility even at warp speeds.
That was even less work than a little work.
Rich
Rich,
Whatever works for you and that is the point. You don’t want to tweak, fine. But I don’t believe it is fair to say that they won’t work, just going by your experience and that is another point.
Cheers, [D]
Frank
I have learned the hard way never to say never in this hobby. While I might never be able to make it happen, there are always a few that can and do.
The only “true” #4 turnouts (to NMRA published dimensions) are those built to or using Fast Tracks templates/dimensions. All the other commercial #4 turnouts I know of modify the NMRA dimensions in some way to allow passage of bigger rolling stock and locomotives.
The HO NMRA #4 turnout has a closure rail radius of about 15". But the curve at this radius is very short - about 2.5" long (see RP 12.3). So only one truck is on this sharp radius at a time. For six wheel trucks, the question is whether or not the middle axle has sufficient play to avoid derailing on this short curve. The points have a curve radius of 43", so there are no problems there. The frog angle is 14 degrees, which is within the capability of many-to-most trucks to pivot.
My answer would be eminently doable with very good-to-excellent trackwork, assuming there are no further sharp curves immediately adjacent to the turnout, and assuming the trucks can manage that 2.5" of 15" radius. On commercial #4 turnouts, which are more spread out and have a larger closure rail radius, it would be easier.
Would I bother trying to make it happen? Probably not. Insufficient room for big curves and large turnouts is a contributing reason for me choosing to model earely rail, and narrow gauge.
Fred W
Fair?
Not fair?
Frank, early on in this thread, I said that 6-axle diesels and 80’+ rolling stock would not easily negotiate #4 turnouts. And I also said that it was my recollection that many others felt that way too.
I don’t understand what the issue of fairness has to do with it. It is my experience and that of others as well. The OP asked for opinions based upon actual experience. That is what I gave him.
Rich
That he did and I shared my experience based on years of building and operating small(small= 1x10’ or less ) HO switching layouts and the lessons learn was priceless as far as what can and can not be done.
Those snap switch crossover I mention…I used them on 3 different ISLs.Good for 4 axle diesels or small steamers and 40-50’ cars.
I can switch cars as easily in N as I can HO and experience was the professor in the school of lessons learned.