I was wondering if anyone has any information or news on the fate of the former SP’s West Phoenix Line (Phoenix-Welton Jct). Over the years there has been speculation that the UP would eventually revive the line. That speculation is not completely unwarranted since the UP has never moved to dismantle the line.
I tried “Googling” for information on this and the last things I could find on the subject were at least 5 years old. Can anybody give us an update?
Regards,
Fred M. Cain,
Topeka, IN
It remains mothballed. Discontinuance of Service in its present form started 12-23-2002 (AB33-178x)
It sits. Nothing new has been filed with STB since and nothing new can happen until STB approves.
Fred M. Cain (9-12):
Hi, Fred!
It’s been a few years since we have post contacted each other.
In reference to your inquiry, I think it is safe to say Union Pacific, and the other railroads, are very preoccupied with meeting the Positive Train Control (PTC) installation deadline, which looms in less than a year and a third!
UP seems (“seems”) to be doing quite well in this, and most likely will complete the PTC installations before the deadline. Even so, thorny problems have arisen, like at Tehachapi Loop in California. UP actually had to suspend the newly activated PTC for the loop until the problem was resolved, though for the rest of the Pass PTC worked fine.
The mothballed western portion of the Phoenix Line, if compared to other UP mothballed lines, probably won’t see through trains again for twenty years, if ever. And, my gut is Amtrak would not want the extra whopping expense of taking the long way around, through Phoenix. So, the cards are stacked against the Phoenix Line being a through route again.
It should be noted also that Intermodal has been reported as stagnate for years. So, the glorious, wondrous future increase of traffic may only be a pipedream. In that light, the Phoenix Line being used again for heavy, slow
K.P.,
Thanks for your response! I have to say that it has never made good sense to me that the You Pee (and the SP before it) would be content with sending traffic from Phoenix to points west (and northwest) around two sides of an isosceles triangle (Phoenix-Picacho-Gila-Welton) to go west. It almost makes me wonder if the UP hasn’t just given up on the market in that corridor and let the truckers have it.
I realize that the Phoenix-L.A. corridor is just a bit short for intermodal or other rail movements but it seems like there could potentially be a lot of traffic in the Pacific Northwest-Phoenix corridor.
Years ago, after the UP took over the SP, I wrote a letter to UP’s corporate headquarters and encouraged them to keep the west Phoenix line for the following reasons:
First, this would make a great case for “paired” trackage with the Gila line generally running in one direction and the Phoenix line in the other.
Second, it would be a great higher speed intermodal route from Phoenix to points west/northwest.
Third, it could someday be developed into a passenger route if the states and/or the federal government would help support that.
And finally, if the tracks are ripped out, it would be at the least astronomically expensive if not downright impossible to ever restore the line.
I got a nice response back. On my first point, they told me that they were leary about running a lot of mainline traffic through downtown Phoenix. Not sure why. That gets done in just about every other American city. Probably they don’t want to get a black eye in public relations from “NIMBYs” in the Phoenix area.
On the direct route proposal, they seemed to be content to go the long way 'round through Picacho. He did tell me that there is potential for a higher speed passenger route but that no one at the state or federal level is providing assistance for t
Regardingthe signal system west of Phoenix I believe you will find that all of the copper wiring and other saleable items have been stolen and sold, perhaps even some track materials. It will take a complete rehab, including the subgrade, to reestablish service on this line.
I’m with you on the signal system although I don’t know how much of it was “stolen”. I’d be inclined to suspect that the UP (possibly even the SP before it) had it salvaged. As to track materials, do we know that for sure or are we speculating there just a bit? I am at a loss to go out and look 'cause I no longer live in Arizona.
However, I DID find this: https://www.up.com/media/releases/0121_socen_az_speed.htm So, we know that the UP has invested rather heavily into Phoenix although this is all EAST of Arlington. But isn’t Arlington nearly half way between Picacho and Welton? That gets me back to the logic of sending traffic over such a circuitous routing. Seems like at some point they might want to consider opening the rest of it.
For what it’s worth, I sent the UP another e-mail. We’ll wait and see if they respond this time.
I was living in the Phoenix area in the 1960s and '70s. The old SP used to run “Beet trains” from somewhere in California to a sugar factory on the Chandler branch. They used the west Phoenix line.
I rode over the Phoenix line on Amtrak in the late 1980s a couple of times. At that time there were still some lower quadrant semaphores between Arlington and Welton but, of course, those are long gone. Believe me, it was a rather bumpy ride!
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
ARLINGTON IS 6-10 MILES WEST OF BUCKEYE. THERE HAS BEEN SOME INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPEMENT IN THAT VICINITY.
THE BNSF LINE FROM WICKENBURG TO PEORIA IS SHOWING GROWTH AND BNSF BUILT A NEW (SECURE) AUTO UNLOADING SITE JUST WEST OF THE AGUA FRIA RIVER THAT HAS CAPTURED THAT BUSINESS FOR THE PHOENIX MARKET.
Well, will wonders never cease? This guy at the UP got back to me right away this time. He is the director of ports and also oversees public relations for the State of Arizona.
He told me that while portions of the Phoenix line are currently out of service, their current intent is to keep the line for future transportation and development needs.
So, the likelyhood is that the UP does, in fact, have a plan for the future of the line but that information has yet to be released to the public. After all, the UP is a private, for-profit corporation so that is their right to do so.
The West Phoenix line may come back as important line in the future - or not. We will just have to wait and see. In the meantime it continues to sleep in the Arizona desert - and gather rust.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Fred M. Cain (9-13):
Let me tell you a very, very true story. It was around 1986, and I was by a version of Southern Pacific’s CP SP538 in Colton, CA. A hot eastbound on Main 1 was stabbed by a malfunctioning control point, so a crewmember disembarked and manually threw the switches to crossover, and the flagged train continued east on Main 2. It only had two engines, and probably a quarter of a mile of intermodal cars. I presumed it was the new, hot train from Los Angeles all the way to Phoenix with just one crew! If it was, obviously it went over the western Phoenix Line you spoke of, Fred.
What is the point in this? Because the new, hot train didn’t last very long, even with the blessing of labor with the use of only one crew, there is NO money to be made Los Angeles to Phoenix, even if you throw in the skimpy Pacific Northwest traffic as well! That IS the hard reality! For good reason, then, the savvy (“savvy”) Union Pacific mothballed the western part of the line.
As far a commuter trains on the western part of the Phoenix Line, I checked my crystal ball, and in 2417 A.D. the Phoenix city limits include Yuma and the Colorado River, and the western Phoenix Line is two-tracks and commuter trains run every ten minutes, and skyscrapers abound everywhere! The vision was spectacular! Now, if you believe that hogwash, maybe you and I can search for fountain of youth pills, and then we could wait together for the year 2417 …<
K.P.,
So, you’re telling me that there are actually active and possibly “upgraded” signals on the West Phoenix line west of Phoenix then? Now, if that’s true that’s a REAL puzzle! Surely there isn’t more than a single daily local turn that ventures from Phoenix out to Buckeye and occassionaly all the way to Arlington. I can’t understand how that would warrant an automatic block system.
No, if what you’re saying is accurate, there is definitely something going on here that we don’t know about. I know that the state has tossed the idea around of Buckeye-Phoenix commuter rail but I thought that was still a long way off.
I don’t really know what to speculate here but, like I say, it’s a puzzle.
Regards,
Fred M.Cain
Fred M. Cain (9-13A):
Yes, Fred, there actually are NEW Automatic Block Signals on the west side of Phoenix, west past Buckeye way out there!
But, one should not read into that what is not there.
The new signals are just to replace the old signals that probably lack parts, etc., because of their age. 70 years ago a number of SP passenger trains rode over this Phoenix Line, which had ABS and short sidings as today.
Now, UP owns the line, but why wouldn’t they just remove the signals altogether? Simply put, there is a long and expensive process to get GOVERNMENT permission to make a line dark or signal-less.
I recently visited Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transit Authority’s old Santa Fe “Second District” in the Glendora area. If you visited that old Santa Fe Super Chief route you would marvel at the ABS signals still in place for a local a day! Again, it is an expensive proposition to make a line dark.
So, please don’t read too much in the new signals on the Phoenix Line. They are just a continuation of the old days, and the railroad probably sees it as more expensive to eliminate the signals than just upgrading the old ones. An odd quirk in railroading!
K.P.,
Hey, thanks for the picture! Nice shot !
I’m not so sure if this is a “quirk of railroading” or government over-regulation.
Yes, I read an article on the former Pasadena sub block signals and was amazed. Crazy!
However, it’s very, very hard for me to not read something into the signals. There are three facts here that seem to point to something in the future. First, the fact that the Union Pacific has not moved aggressively to salvage the line. And in a state where they’re probably paying property taxes on it at that.
Second, there is the response that I got back from that gentleman that I shared with you today. And now, these singals.
I have a half a notion to ask the guy about the signals too but I hate to make a nuisance out of myself. I’m sure he’s busy and has better things to do than to get questions from an old SP fan.
I hope Fred Frailey takes notice of this thread. I think he was always an SP fan, too.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
It’s been nearly 10 years since I retired from UP, so my views may not represent current UP strategy. But my experience is that, ever since the UP service crises of the late 90’s and early 2000’s, UP has been VERY reluctant to permanently give up lines that could potentially represent additional capacity, even though there doesn’t appear to be any near term need for them. UP’s current CEO - Lance Fritz - alluded to this policy in a recent talk at Northwestern University
The best example of this policy is the Tennesee Pass line in Colorado, most of which hasn’t been used since 1998, but is still in place. Of course, it would have to be completely rebuilt before it could be used again, but this could be done without any NIMBY opposition because wouldn’t require any affirmative regulatory approval (since it has never been “abandoned”).
The Phoenix-West line is another example of this. It has never been fully abandoned, which was deliberate and not an oversight. Some years ago (off the top of my head, I don’t remember exactly when), UP obtained FRA approval to discontinue the signal system on this line, to permit it to be reopened without restoring the signals. It never happened, but that doesn’t mean it won’t someday in the future, Obviously, UP is keeping this as an option.
Would I be correct in believing that they did the same with the signal system on the Tennessee Pass line
I remember in an earlier thread on this line, that UP did not favor it as a thru line because of a number of tight 90 degree turns in the Pheonix area.
This is strictly from memory which (given my declining years) could be wrong. But my recollection is that UP did get signal removal authority on the segment of the Tennessee Pass line from Gypsum to Minturn because they intended to make limited use of this segment (I’m not sure whether they ever did).
I’m not aware that UP ever got signal discontinuance authority between Minturn and Parkdale. But they didn’t need it if they had no immediate plans to operate trains over this segment (to my knowledge, this segment has seen no train service since 1998).
Between Parkdale and Canon City (the segment owned by RGX and used by the Canon City & Royal Gorge tourist road), UP and RGX got FRA authority to discontinue CTC and go to ABS in connection with transfer of dispatching responsibility from UP to RGX.&nbs
Falcon,
So, they did, in fact, receive permission to remove the ABSS on the West Phoenix line, then. However, as was posted yesterday by “K.P.” we actually have some evidence that they have replaced some of the signals with new, UP style “Darth Vador” type. I find this most curious.
This brings me to another question. I wonder how far west on the West Phoenix line the new signals go. Have they installed any west of Arlington or are they only east of Arlington?
I know that the huge nuclear power facility has an access at Arlington so could it be this is for some kind of security even though the traffic levels clearly do not warrant signals?
This brings me to somewhat of an irony. I was told years ago that the UP is reluctant to run long road freights through Phoenix. Well, when the need arises to haul nuclear waste from the nuclear plant to the on again-off again-on again Yucca waste site in Nevada, the logical route would be Arlington-Colton-Barstow then over the SL&U route to the the waste site access line.
With the west Phoenix line out of service, they would have to haul this dangerous hazmat right smack dab through Phoenix!
I am familiar with the so called 90 degree curves that were mentioned. There is one on the immediate east side of where the old SP Mesa depot once stood and one about a mile timetable e
Well, again, I don’t have access to any files, so I’m only speaking (writing) based on my recollectioins, which may not be entirely accurate given the passage of time and my advancing years. But I believe that the Phoenix-West line is in service some distance beyond Phoenix proper. The signal removal authority only covered the out of service segment (that UP, at the time, was thinking of restoring to service).
I found a copy of the FRA notice covering te Phoenix-West signal discontinuance on the “regulations.gov” website. The docket number is FRA 2004-18894. The limits of the signal discontinuance are Wellton AZ (MP 770.8) to Arlington AZ (MP 861.3).
Falcon,
Thanks for your help in helping me solve this little mystery. I suspect that the UP still intends to restore service on the Welton-Arlington segment at some point sans signals but it’s just that they have bigger priorities right now that will need to be addressed first. I base that assumption on the response I got back from the P.R. rep in Southern California who oversees P.R. for Arizona.
We’ll just have to wait and see.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain