Interesting video of the Wellton Branch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=36R2c9rDGKk
Back in the day the 4-8-4 Daylights pulled Overnight-branded LCL trains from LA to Phoenix over this line.
Fred M. Cain:
You make some fascinating arguments about the West Phoenix Line and I feel many here at the forums would agree with you. As much as many of us would like to see the line reopened, though, frankly, it appears unreasonable. There are several reasons why.
First, the Sunset Route has only a hundred miles or so yet (I think) to be two-tracked, and that likely would be higher up on UP management’s mind.
Second, the current arrangement by Picacho, Ariz. is a CTC wye arrangement, so there is easy access to the Phoenix metropolitan area, without the high cost of upgrading Phoenix-Wellton.
Thirdly, and lastly, reportedly. there has been transit interests desirous of reopening the line to Wellton and all the way to Yuma. Why would UP sink any money into the line if transit interests could get tons of Federal money to pay for upgrading the whole Phoenix-Yuma line?
It should be realized that often politicians’ No. 1 focus is to get Federal money into a local economy. If you know anything about how money works, you would become a believer that a billion dollars could magically become billions more! I mean, wouldn’t you show up if someone was handing out $100,000 checks? I would, and I would tell my wife about it too! And my adult kids also. And my in-laws. I have a great relationship with them. Hey, I could have a super relationship if they got free money …
Croteaudd,
I agree with most of what you’d posted. However, I’m still reluctant about the wisdom of UP attempting to run a “fast intermodal” service from West Coast ports to Phoenix via Picacho Jct. You pointed out that the wye has CTC which helps but it’s still a circuitous routing. If they build this new intermodal yard in the Buckeye area, that would make the move even more circuitous. This just does not make good sense to me BUT that might be exactly what the UP intends to do.
I guess we will just have to wait to see what UP’s next move will be.
I’ve had a theory about this for several years. I strongly suspect that the UP has fully intended to renovate and reopen the Arlington – Roll section of the line for some time. There is actually a tad bit of anecdotal evidence for this. However, they were perhaps hoping to get some “help” either from Amtrak, the feds, the State or some combination of all of the above.
But they may have gotten tired of waiting now and have decided to move ahead on their own which, if true, that’d be find with me. The government doesn’t do things as efficiently as a private business.
I also agree with your position that state and local governments try to attract federal dollars to boost their local economies. Sometimes it seems to me that they are more interested in that than in actually imp
Back in SP steam-powered and first generation diesel-powered passenger train days, all passenger trains except the Argonaut took the line through Phoenix.
Fred M. Cain:
Concerning Los Angeles-Phoenix Intermodal, I believe it was 1986, and I was trackside two or three blocks west of where the old Colton Tower once was (Colton, Calif.), west of the then double crossovers, and the hot Southern Pacific L.A.-Phoenix piggyback train showed up. It stopped, a crew member deboarded, lined the power switches from Main 1 to Main 2, and then the Intermodal proceed east at restricted speed. As I recall, it had something like 15 85-foot cars on it, all loaded, and two units as the power.
Even back then, that was one of the few trains that ever used the Phoenix line, besides, of course, the tri-weekly Sunset Limited. So, the powers that then be, wisely mothballed the line, and to this day it is mothballed. That undoubtedly avoided UP paying out more money than the line generated!
Letter writing campaigns may be a waste of time because there simply is no money in the out of service western Phoenix Line for anyone, except in the Roll area that remains in service. Here in California, there is still talk about running two commuter trains Indio (Coachella)-Los Angeles and back. UP is reportedly willing if promoters will three-track the two-track line. But the ridership draw I believe is even worst for the Yuma-Phoenix route. If that line through Buckeye is ever used by commuter trains, it very, very likely will be after our time. Can you imagine, Fred, UP two-tracking the Phoenix Line! Can you imagine that line being like up in the San Francisco
Croteaudd,
I believe there was more traffic on the West Phoenix Line back in SP days than a single 15-car piggyback train. There was, indeed, a daily manifest train that also used the line. I believe it was usually only about 40-50 cars or so. Then, there were the seasonal Spreckels sugar beet trains. I caught the sugar beet train one time rolling and rattling its way through Tempe. It was a sight to behold**:** Wooden cars and friction journal bearings. ‘Course, the sugar beet traffic is long gone. I actually lived in the Phoenix area from 1967 to 1980.
I, too, am extremely skeptical about a Buckeye commuter train. I know that’s been talked about but there have been so many proposals for better rail service, not only in Arizona, but all over the U.S. Usually, they end up going nowhere.
However, after having lived so many years in the Phoenix area, I was really surprised and amazed that Phoenix finally got light rail and there are actually streetcars now running in Tempe. I never dreamed that would happen in the car-centric Salt River Valley.
As far as the West Phoenix Line goes, I think what a lot of us are doing on this thread is mere speculating. I, too, have to confess that I have been guilty of that at times.
As I suggested in my last post, I will continue to post new and updated information on the West Phoenix line as it becomes available. Until then**………….**
It may be if the Buckeye commuter trains will chasnge things If commuter trains.are to get off the ground UP would demand that the Wellingyon spur be restored to operation.
Fred M. Cain:
In your post of December 5, 2023, at X:25 A.M., you mentioned ‘sugar beet trains’ on the east side of the Phoenix Line. I wonder if those sugar beet trains were the same ones I saw here in Southern California. In 1965 I was quite active railfan-wise, and a friend and I were in junior high school, and we saw quite often a sugar beet train pass our town, Colton, Calif. They would go west to somewhere in the Central Valley of California where the beets were unloaded and processed. In 1967, with the Palmdale Cutoff opening, the ‘beet’ trains were routed that shortcut way.
Sometime in the early 1970’s an empty sugar beet train was heading eastbound through Colton (to your area?). It derailed right at Colton Tower, and cars scattered everywhere, with one beet car actually landing right inside the wooden tower! The towerman got a horrendous shaking up at the sugar beet car striking the tower, and as I recalled, was actually trapped inside the tower because the door would not open thereafter. He likely only survived and the tower did not collapse because of the many steel lever rods that went to switches to control them probably held the tower up.
Anyway, if you know if the sugar beet trains here in Southern California a half century ago were the same ones that passed the Phoenix area, I sure would like to know. Thanks.
Sugar beet trains are now sugar beet trucks! I see them seasonally and quite often too, and remember beets used to ride the rails!
croteaudd,
The sugar beet trains were well mentioned and documented in railfan literature of the 1970’s and '80s. However, I cannot recall Phoenix being mentioned. But I know 'cause I saw it with my own eyes.
Spreckles had a HUGE sugar factory a few miles south of Chandler, AZ, on the “Dock Branch”. This was actually a cut back from the primary Phoenix subdivision owing to a line relocation in the early '60s, I think. The beet blocks would come in over the West Phoenix line from California then trundle down the the Dock branch to the Spreckles plant.
I can no longer remember exactly where the beets originated. Some of them might’ve originated in the Imperial Valley and possibly from somewhere on the Coastline.
Another Phoenix move that although I never saw it, was through refer blocks. The Salt River Valley was once a major producer of fruits and vegetables. Especially citrus. I have read where long refer blocks would come into Phoenix on the West Phoenix Line from California, then pick up a cut of cars and head east.
I have read that this was done often although I didn’t actually get to see that. Sadly, that kind of refer traffic is also now long gone.
Fred M. Cain:
Thanks for the quick reply. It sounds from your description that the sugar beet trains I saw in Colton (CA) as a kid came from the agricultural fields in Southern California near the Mexican border.
Back in the day, when I was a kid at UCSB, sugar beet trains were a staple on the Coast Line. (That and autoracks serving the plant at Fremont.) I don’t remember which way they went loaded. But this suggests they were grown somewhere north of Santa Barbara.
John Bishop
Sugar beets were (and may still be) a staple on the Santa Maria Valley.
As we wander around here can we get back to the specifics of the UP intermodal proposal in Phoenix. My initial analysis, derived from UP’s unspecific description of it’s operation is unclear. Can anyone with UP connections get them to furnish a map showing how they will move the containers within the City.
Dining Car,
Well, that’s a most interesting thought but remember, the subject thread is actually about the West Phoenix line (WPL). I only brought up the subject of UP’s intermodal plans because I believe they might have implications for the future of the WPL
As far as trucks on city streets, I wouldn’t have the foggiest idea. You could try contacting the UP but, quite frankly, I find it hard to believe they would give you that information. Indeed, they might not even have a plan for that in the first place.
What follows is a URL to Union Pacific’s official new release on the subject. There is a guy’s name, a Mr. Keith Jones, at the bottom of the article along with an e-mail contact for him. You can give it a shot**:**
https://www.up.com/customers/premium/intmap/phoenix/index.htm
I was actually toying with the idea of e-mailing him myself and asking him that if the new service really takes off and does well, would they consider reopening the WPL? Somehow, I have a sneaking suspicion of what he’d say, assuming he responds at all. It would be just like that last two times I inquired about this. “We have no plans to abandon the line but neither do we have any immediate plans to reopen it”. Or, words to that effect.
Now, what follows here is a link to a RAILPac article that contains a lot of info.&
diningcar:
May I suggest the reason things are ‘not clear’ is because UP might not want things to be clear! It should be remembered that UP bought, according to a TRAINS newswire some months ago, as I recall a 10% interest in an autonomous firm. Of course UP would be ‘unclear’ about something like that, because if UP got the wrath of labor, labor could destroy UP politically and shareholder-wise. Obviously, this all is only theory, but I think you will agree that there is a very strong possibly that that may be the way things are!
Fred M. Cain made a valid point, that this thread is about the West Pheonix Line. However, if UP had autonomous trucks delivering containers, that could very well put a death stroke to ever reopening the West Phoenix Line.
Fred M. Cain and Super Hope for the West Phoenix Line
Much of Union Pacific’s ex-Southern Pacific West Phoenix Line is mothballed and basically without hope. However, rebuilding that line to a wondrous two-track commuter route is not as crazy as one would think! Two examples are given, both in Southern California.
First, Santa Fe’s old Super Chief Route though Pasadena. That line was rebuilt to a wondrous electrified two-track commuter line, and is being extended to Pomona, and eventually then even further to Montclair. Ridership is great! BUT no one has yet figured out how to solve the thorny problem of when THAT low fare line meets the high fare line at Pomona!
Second, the Perris Valley Line. Basically, there is NO ridership between Riverside and South Perris, even after a Riverside authority spent $250 million rebuilding that ex-Santa Fe line. Now, that entity is spendings millions and millions more to two-track a big part of the line!
So, in Arizona, it is just a matter of promoting the West Phoenix Line to the RIGHT people! Dangling one or two billion dollars in Federal money in front of politicians therein has to get someone’s attention!
Commuter rail to where? Most of the residential development on the West side of PHX is miles away from the SP line. And we have a decent grid street system plus I-10, Loop 303/101 and a future east-west freeway that will run from Loop 202 to Hwy 85(the projected route of I-11)
All immaterial. Some here just want to ride the choo-choo train. Haven’t you ever been to a train show? It’s very “enlightening”, some of the people that you see there.
azrail:
‘Commuter rail to where?’ you asked. This thread is about the West Phoenix Line and possibly resuming service on it. In my opinion, any reopening of the line would cost more than UP could ever make! But a commuter service from Buckeye to downtown Phoenix MAY be workable. And as the ridership grew, extending the Phoenix Line farther west seems feasible.
Concerning autonomous trucks delivering Intermodal containers to the Phoenix area, I believe UP sees it as a great profit mechanism with great potential. Personally, I’m inclined to believe such will eventually be OUTLAWED! Here in California automatic running red light ticketing got the wrath of the electorate and was outlawed. Autonomous trucks I believe will suffer the same fate, and UP’s investment in such will become a total loss. But that is just an opinion.
To all:
Fred M. Cain is right, that thoughts on the West Phoenix Line should be posted in this thread. Anything else should be posted elsewhere, except for a slight mention.
Croteaudd,
I just can’t believe that reviving the West Phoenix Line would cost the UP far, far more than any potential future benefit that they might get back from such an investment.
I strongly suspect that the “guesstimates” posted on that RAILPac site that I’d linked to earlier are probably high. Possibly even very high. You and I were in agreement that estimates are purposely made as high as possible in order to attract dollars into a local economy. I think that RAILPac got their figures from a study done by the Arizona DOT if I remember right.
But ~ ! If a private company such as UP were to do the work, they’d find a way to pinch pennies and get the most work done for the lowest possible price. That’s just the way business works – as opposed to government agencies.
Here is some second-hand information that I posted a few years ago that can be either taken at face value or with a grain of salt, as you wish.