It’s a bit early for me to ask layout planning questiong since I don’t even have a place for a layout.
I was thinking of ways to maximize the modeled space (where there is some sort of scenery) on a double decked layout and still have good sized staging tracks. So I though maybe using a Helix as staging would work.
I know that it would probably take a good amount to start a train going up hill. but that could add to the fun (helpers). Going downhill one might have to be careful
my layout consists of 4 levels in a 9 by 11 room. The lowes level is staging and a half loop connects that level. The three main levels are connected with a helix that has a outer radius of 30 inches and a inner radius of 27 inches. There is a 4 inch rise from track head to track head.
I had a Roco 6 axle electric locomotive on the track with TRACTION TIRES. Behind it the freight train conisted of Atheran, Atlas, P2K and Intermountain cars, all with steel wheels and Kadee couplers. The locomotive went half way up the inner track of the 6 loop helix. When the power was cut there was a definite jerk to the train. This was even more pronounced when the power was applied to the track again at half throttle. I thought the locomotive would rip the couplers out. Next this single locomotive was replaced with 3 Kato SD40-2 snoot nose engines. Because these locomotives do not have traction tires there was considerable spin when the power was applied. Even with full throttle applied the three engines spun wildly until they gripped the rail and then proceeded to accelerate quite quickly.
So my suggestion would be to use only locomotives without traction tires, and have the train length equal to 90 percent of the capacity of the locomotives and keep the throttle settings low and you can use a helix for storage. Unless of course the train is so long that the cars closest to the engines will string line upon starting. This can easily occur on my helix when there are 6 diesels upfront and 50+ cars behind trailing.
Tell it to John Armstrong! In one of his published plans, The Master had a double-track helix that included crossovers so some trains could run wrong main around others - to vary the order they entered the helix. Sounds awfully like staging to me.
In my own layout design there is a long stretch of triple track, a thoroughfare and two tracks for sequential staging of two long and three short freights, respectively. I can see no reason why I couldn’t have built the same on a helix, instead of a longish tangent with 90 degree curves at each end. There wouldn’t have been any need to change the 2% grade.
Staging can be arranged along ANY hidden track, regardless of configuration.
I tend to not like helixes as much as practicality they are, its the running thru non-scenicked areas that does not interest me operationally. Consider the Tehachapi loop was a popular thing in track planning as it extends running and gains height while being visible. I tend to like a No-Lix where you design the layout track to rise over the course of the layout and still be visible. Takes some careful thinking in design.
For staging you probably would always have the engine coupled with not enough cars to slide it down the incline. For me I am purposely trying not to have hidden staging, using carfloats as my on/off layout staging. Since I will have terminal freight facilities, the train creation is operationally active and theres no fiddling with cars, you make up your train with switching and organizing your car cards.
On the old club layout I was in, we had this hidden track that represented some distance between towns, tho it was not a helix, it hid the train for about a minute or so. I didn’t really like this very much. Club had to move as building was sold so that no longer exists.
Indeed, Armstrong used this in several plans. But it doesn’t always work that well.
In one Armstrong-designed layout where I’ve been involved, backing trains up into the helix is a finicky process that comes with some number of derailments. The owner added a number of loop staging tracks above and below the helix so that he didn’t have to rely solely on the helix for staging.
In another case, I was asked to re-design a different Armstrong layout to eliminate the staging in the helix completely because it just proved too problematic in HO over time (tight radius, tricky crossovers, etc.).
And of course, with trains stored in the helix, it may be less useful for moving trains between decks unless one has been careful with the design and where the trains are parked between crossovers.
Since the Original Poster seems to be talking about a future layout for an unknown space that’s not even available now, this is purely theoretical anyway. But my experience with these and other layouts suggests to me that staging-in-a-helix should probably be nearly a last resort.
Very often it’s possible to re-use the footprint of the helix with staging loops above and below the helix itself. That seems to be easier.
My layout uses a double track helix with serial staging on the inside track. The design works well when the helix is used as an origination point. Trains are cued up before the session and then run out one at a time. They exit the layout to a different staging area. My helix has one switch at the top and one at the bottom to enter the second loop. Due to reliability concerns, I would never bury crossovers in a helix, but there are other forum members who have done it successfully (Pastorbob). I do agree with Byron that the arrangement is not ideal, but is does give me another 45’ of train staging and storage in a small room.
My Helix radii are 30"/32.5" (HO scale) and the construction is bullet proof. I don’t have any operational issues. If this were not the case, the helix would be a real drag…
Have two helix on my Santa Fe connecting the top and middle decks, with a long hidden grade connecting the middle and bottom decks. I stage trains on the two helixes at the beginning of an op session as a way to get some quick traffic into Oklahoma City on the first deck while crews are working their way around the startup procedure. Works just fine. Also end up with two trains staged on the helixes at the end of the session. I don’t leave them on the helix for long period of times out of consideration for the kadee springs, but never have any problems.
I guess my thought would be, if you are going to build the helix anyway, what’s one more turn up and/or down for ordinary staging tracks above or below the helix proper?
One thing to keep in mind if your going to use a helix for staging, do not back your trains out of the helix (more specifically back them upwards)…they tend to derail and crash to the floor if your cars are improperly weighted or if the helix is constructed poorly.
I visited the Great Falls Model RR Club layout in Lewiston, ME during their open house last Christmas. They were building a large helix that plan to use for staging as well as level interchange. The “helix” is rectangular and maybe 8 ft x 5 ft. I hope to visit next Christmas to see how this has developed.
Don’t see why it couldn’t be made to work. A side track on the helix would give you the ability to alter the arrival order of trains at the top and bottom of your grade. The inclusion of a curved switch on the helix would enable the holding of multiple trains at any one time.
Now if you had a double track helix and if you had double track in each direction on the helix and if you had some curved switches for crossovers between the side track and the through track then depending on the radius of the helix you could probably hold one, two, maybe even three trains on the helix at any given time allowing a completely random arrival sequence at the top and bottom of your grade.
Packer, it’s definately been suggested before, so I guess it’s not that far-fetched.
However I do not care at all for the idea, because:
a) serial staging works, but kinda sucks becuase everything can only come out in a certain order. And it obviously needs to be a double track helix.
b) except in the actual staging yard, hidden switches or crossovers are a bad idea. My club’s layout has a fair bit of hidden connecting track and helixes, but there are absolutely no switches, crossovers or crossings in the hidden track.
Reusing the space of a helix to put two helices, or a turnback loop etc is a good idea. We have one helix that is actually a single track helix, and double track helix around it, and also a hidden turnback loop wraps around it, and there’s a pair of stub-ended storage tracks further down from the lower visible level. At the very bottom, the helix empties out into a double level staging yard with 6 tracks on each level. You can also stack helixes on top of each other if you’re going between different levels.
Consider this example, which is really 3 helices occupying the same space:
Are you applying power at all once, or slowly increasing it from 0? If you just flip a switch to ON, you’re pretty much guaranteed to get wheel slip and/or other undesired results.
Unless your incline has a 40% grade, having the engine slide down the hill is not going to be an issue no matter how many cars you have connected to it.
I agree that the helix isn’t that geat an option for staging. One thing that John Armstrong does suggest is using inner radii of balloon tracks/return loops for staging. Keep the outer radius for your mainline and park those locals and shorter wheelbase locos on the inner radii. These can also double as passing sidings as well. If you have a point to point type railroad with return loops on each end for continuous running, this may be a good option for you.
yes I had the throttle setting at half - DC - and flipped the toggle switch. I know that is totally undesireable but wanted to see if any derailing would occur and how the train overall would react - 20 car freight. I have stopped freights up to 40 cars in length on my helix and started them again by very very gentle applications of the throttle without any issues.
As for helixes and how to build them you guys are the masters at it. Anybody who wishes to see what is possible given the space, imagination and willingness to work hard has to see the club layout you belong to. The drive is well worth it to see what your club has created.
