What am I missing?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

About a year ago, I had an urge to visit my attic. During the last three decades my home saw two rather large additions and during construction, I had moved many things out of harms way to either the attic or outside storage sheds. This trip yielded boxes containing over 1000 HO wood car kits that had amassed over the years. Actually I think they reproduced on their own, but I cannot yet prove this. My plans were to build all of these some day when I become really decrepit and can not make it into the basement. (I’m only just “crepit” now).

Six years ago I became rather discouraged with myself and layout, as I had fallen victim of sorts to RTR rolling stock and its simplicity of acquiring. Actually these cars were beautiful and were no match for the kit built wood cars I had built during the 60’s and 70’s. Then after viewing vidoes of my pike, the look of plastic somehow stopped working for me.

I remember when I first entered the hobby during Army service (1961-1969) the scale side of the hobby had three basic genres…armchair, build trains, and build layouts. Today brings us really many fine layouts, but it seems that most equipment is RTR …even including structures now. Am I nuts in now insiting that everything on my pike be built either by me, or a skilled craftsman, but fashioned from mostly basswood or sheet styrene? Most likey I am nuts (three wives will back that up), but my point of this note is to possibly tell folks of the fun they are missing…never mind pride of accomplishment in building their trains instead of just buying them. Of course, many newbies have no idea of this as there are few hobbyshops that now stock rolling stock kits…trucks and couplers, yes!

Today, the only thing RTR plastic on the Piermont are a few tank cars and still most open hoppers. Three years back I built over 400 wood kits of covered hoppers, gondolas, boxcars, flats, and passenger cars. I took off for several months to do this, and now my r

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Basicly I am the opposite. I used to fix wooden cars built by others and even learned have to modify z bracing made of wood to match long gone kit z wood (Howard will know what I am talking about). Then there started to appear RTR that was better than what I could do, even with skills. In fact I just put in the e-bay box a dozen passenger cars by Alexander, more than half of them buit and painted, just couldn’t compare to todays RTR. I even don’t want to build plastic kits anymore, have a 1/2 dozen or so covered hoppers from the 1930’s by Tichy, hopeing someone will RTR them. The plastic RTR cars that show the most improvement over wood kits are tank cars followed by stock cars, maybe I should just ship them off to Howard. That being said I still have a few wood cars, mainly Central Valley ones.

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Hey Howard!

I don’t think you are missing anything - building kits, or in my case recently, rebuilding kits is definitely more rewarding than buying RTR. My last kit project involved resurrecting four Star Line stock cars. I bought the previously assembled kits on eBay for a very good price[Y][:)]. I have no idea when they were built, but the Star Line kits were apparently last produced in 1945.

The kits were obviously assembled by a craftsman. Everything was true and straight, and there was no excess glue showing in any of the many joints. Unfortunately time had taken its toll so there were several broken boards and the lower corner of one car was crushed a bit.

Putting them back in order was a labour of love. I felt I owed the original builder my best efforts since he had done such a great job the first time. After patching the damage I repainted them and I took the liberty of re-naming them for the Algoma Eastern.

Having enjoyed that exercise so much, I immediately started looking for older unbuilt stock car wood kits. Star Line kits were non-existant on eBay, and the relatively few other kits by different manufacturers were priced way out of my range. That pretty much left me with Accurail and P2K kits. Accurail was out because I wanted something close to the slatted ends that the Star Line cars had. P2Ks were an acceptable compromise because at least the top half of the ends were slatted.

I have managed to score six P2K kits at reasonable prices. I have started one kit, but after doctorwayne’s recent comments about substituting wire grab irons for the supplied plastic ones, I am on hold. I think I’m going to follow Wayne’s lead but I will have to wait for a pinched nerve in my right shoulder, which has been there for six weeks now, to recuperate before I can start doing that sort of modelling.

Cheers to all!

Dave</

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rrebell:

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not opposed to RTR at all. I have a whole bunch of RTR that would have been an expensive pain in the derriere to build, even assuming kits were available. In fact, four of my favourite cars are True Line Trains RTR Canadian Pacific slab side hopper cars that cost me a relative fortune (at least in my mind anyhow). Sylvan Hobbies made resin kits for them years ago, but when the kits come up (which is very rarely), they cost more than the True Line RTR.

Never the less, if I have a choice between RTR and a kit, I’m inclined towards the kit.

Regards

Dave

5

I can echo those statements as well.

For me, building a car kit is akin to the entremet during a fine meal.

(look it up, it’s the “palate cleanser” between meal courses [:D])

If I’m at a point where I can not continue on a large project or if I just need a relaxing breather between major projects, I’ll scan my stash of unfinished kits, including “craftsman” and laser cut wood, plastic or some resin kits, and put one together as sort of a break.

Last night I assembled three Accurail hopper cars that were sitting on the shelf because, well, I really didn’t want to invest any heavy brain work on anything else.

For the most part, building a rolling stock kit is pretty much routine and I’ll listen to an audio book or have an old Bogart movie playing in the background… before I know it, three hours or more have zipped by…

Still, when it comes to present-day molding and painting capabilities of the top manufacturers, I’m awestruck at the fine details and lettering that can be accomplished on a relatively mass-produced model.

Some of the examples out there by Exactrail, Tangent and others is just amazing!

Regards, Ed

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Ed:

“Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…”

Of all the model railroading aspects, kit building and scratch building are two of the most relaxing, for me anyhow. I try not to get too relaxed when doing electronics. If I do I’ll mess up for sure. I have forgotten the resistors for LEDs several times because I was blissfully sailing along congratulating myself on how clean the solder joints were.[D)]

Dave

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I enjoy wood kits and buy the old ones at train shows as I come across them in S and O. I’m still building the layout so I use RTR a lot, but eventually I plan to build all my kits.

Paul

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…and I was in a similar state of euphoria after making beautiful solder joints on tiny decoder wires—then looking on the bench to see the little lengths of heat shrink tubing that were supposed to go on the wire first!

[D)]

I just laugh (not too loudly, lest the wife get suspicious) and chalk it up to old age.

I love this hobby… (repeat, ad nausium).

Ed

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Gidday Howard, What am I missing? Well that’s a rhetorical question which you, yourself answered. What am I missing, nothing, as you have the stated goal of having no RTR on the Piermont Division.

Are you nuts, inzane? (Sorry I couldn’t help myself).[:-^] That’s a completely different question, to the Lady Model Railroaders I’ll take this opportunity to apologise for excluding you, but the point which I now wish to make is that most outsiders consider us nuts anyhow! “Grown Men playing with toy trains, I ask you”!!!

However the degree of nuttiness depends on where one positions oneself in the asylum of M

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Howard,I dunno…I never was a fan of any kit that has a kazillon pieces or starts as a box of wood on the other hand I miss building the simple car kits. I also prefer kit bashing over scratchbuilding. Eons ago I designed and built a rather large frozen food warehouse using Pikestuff walls and doors and sheets of flat ABS plastic for the roof as a club project.

If Scale Trains enlarges their line of “operator” car kits I will turn to those cars-they also make these same car kits in their “Rivet Counter” line that comes with all the details found on the RTR "Rivet Counter"cars.

I suspect if I ever backdated my layout to the 50/60s I would be buying lots of Accurail 40 and 50 foot car kits instead of the RTR cars.

Of course I always enjoyed switching cars over anything else so,my nod to easy peasy car kits comes natural.I add KDs,metal wheels, some extra weight over the trucks, light weathing and the car is good to go.

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Different strokes for different folks. Some people enjoy building kits which is nice for those who do; Others, at least in the olden days, built kit as a means to an end - it was the only way to get a decent roster of rolling stock since RTR in those days was toy train set stuff. I was in the latter category - I built kits as a means to build a roster of cars, and occasionally still do if it is needful, but it is on a fulfilling or generally enjoyable thing for me to do. Model building is something I tend to put off in favor of something else, lately layout building.

I have noticed there are those on forums who seem to characterize kit building as if it were a virtuous thing. It is true in some cases, kits bashing can result in a more accurate model. But I’d guess most kits which are built probably results in a lot of generic cars which have no precise analog in the real world and only generically represent freight cars. I’ve noticed that it is difficult to find real freight cars which are a close match to most kits so one has to be very careful and do research to avoid a roster of generic freight cars; that is if that is important; to many it is not. However, with modern RTR model’s a much higher degree of fidelity to real freight cars can be had, in many cases nearly dead on matches to real freight cars, and when weathered properly they can be the pinicle in realism. To me that is not a negative but rather a very good thing!

In the end there are many roads to a satisfying and realistic MR hobby experience. None are more right than another for everyone depending on ones goals. Certainly RTR models can be an element which brings a layout that much closer to realism; thats a fact. As Harry Wong stated not long ago, the hobby is insane good these days. To answer the original question, “what am I missing”, you aren’t missing anything. The answer is, you find a different type of enjo

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Howard,

I don’t understand why you, or anyone else see this question as “either/or”.

I have lots of plastic cars on my layout, from simple blue box Athearn cars with a little (very little) weathering, as well as todays high end, high detail wonders.

I also have wood and metal kits dating back to my childhood, I started building Silver Streak kits in my very early teens.

I still build kits of every skill level - BUT, I don’t have the kind of time you do, and I’m building a layout of good size, not as big as yours, but still good size, 1000 sq ft, 8 scale miles of mainline.

And, simply put, I want to reach a specific level of completeness in a reasonable time frame.

But more importantly, the idea of the craftsman side of this hobby has been talked about endlessly on here. Many simply admit they lack the skills needed to build advanced, or even intermediate levle kits, madeup of any material, wood or otherwise. And many say they have no interest in learning those skills.

And respectfully, I do see a great iorny in your comments. You are a craftsman of the highest order in this hobby, no question. I have seen your layout in person, and met you several times, thought you may not remember. Your scenery and structure skills are beyond top shelf, as are your rolling stock building skills.

Yet, you remain the biggest promoter I know of brass locos? What is a brass loco? A RTR model of the highest skill and detail level. Not unlike a Kadee box car or hopper, or an Intermountain RTR piece…to a guy who can’t build a resin or wood kit.

Would you lobby for a return to locomotive kits?

Anyway, I’m still happy with a mix of all sources of rolling stock on my layout…

Sheldon

13

Some very good thoughts and points. I showed my wife the original post. She is from England and a “northerner” and she commented that the original post had an elitist tone to it. Giving the benefit of the doubt, such a tone was probably not intended but I could see she pointed meant.

Sheldons first point is salient; kits take time. It certainly makes a big difference to be retired and have lots of time since kits do take time. If I had a proper, well lit work bench and lots of time, I might be more inclinde to feel the same as Howard. As it is, and many are in my boat and didn’t have career life pilots salary to provide the resources to afford brass, build on home additions or have a large house with a large collection train collectiion. Most of us slog along on much less and have children to put through college etc. if we can affo

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I don’t want to develop the skills it takes to build high end train models. Its easier just to buy it than to build it, although, I enjoy superdetailing already detailed RTR models, and can’t stand building structure kits as designed, I like to kitbash or alter them.

But generally speaking, people tend to gravitate to things that are easier…its human nature.

Back in the day, before RTR, modelers were forced to develop those skills if they wanted high end models…they generally were not available commercially. Developing modeling skills was more of a necessity than a choice. This isn’t a value choice, its simply progress, IMO.

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Sheldon,

Actually I would support, promote, and again build loco kits. I can honestly say that I once built every offering from Penn Line/Bowser, although I have never scratch-built a loco. In addition I think I built most of the Hobbytown line of early diesels. I still on my layout run some of the Leetown locos I built years back.

Yes, I’m a great supporter of brass as I see them as works of fine art, but if I only had a choice of kit-built die cast locos built by me or brass for my pike, I’d choose stuff built be me. I get tremendous enjoyment from building anything, and that works for me…it does not have to work for others as we all have our preferences in the hobby. If what I’m modeling now were available in die-cast kits, I’d prefer them…but they just are not, so brass works for me. I do modify my brass with complete DCC (or a good friend does this), and I have hours of enjoyment painting my brass…then of course the weathering.

I was inspired to write this thread as I recently gave a friend a Quality Craft caboose kit to assemble. He did so and not only did it turn out well, but became a epiphany of sorts for him. He is now a fan of wood kits. By the way, I mentioned hobby shops no longer stock these, but eBay and good train shows have a fine selection of older quality wood kits.

Another interesting thing I have noticed…I have built several flat resin kits such as Westerfield, Sunshine, and F&C. When finished, they seem hard to tell from the plastic RTR counterparts. With wood the differnce to me is spectacular…but that is just me!!

Also, thanks for the fine words about my skills and layout. Im not sure I’m worthy of all of that, but thanks just the same.

HZ

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Some like kits, some like scratch/parts built, some like RTR. Thats why this is truely the golden age of model railroading. You can do any or all of these as you desire. Personally, I do all as needed to build my layout - which is under slow progress. And while the locomotive kits are no longer made, I still find them at train shows - I currently have over ten (in 3 scales yet) waiting to be built.

Even though retired, I have many demands upon time so building the layout is my focus for now, most of the kits will have to wait. As for skill level, mine’s not all that great, but I build because I enjoy it.

I always remember that this is a hobby, enjoy the fun parts and buy as much of the non-fun parts as you can.

Paul

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While I agree with your thoughts, I will add one more about “back in the day”.

True, maybe some people decided to develop those skills to enjoy the hobby, but I see that as a chicken/egg question.

I think it is more likely that only people with an interest/ability in those skills were truely attracted to the hobby for the long haul.

I think those without the skills would give the hobby a look, or a quick try, and them move on.

Today thay can simply enjoy the RTR version of the hobby…

Sheldon

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It is a shame that we can’t get people together better so that we could pair up different needs but I have tried that with a few people and none of the outcomes were good (I had a bunch of high end building kits and was giving the other person two and was to get one back that was built, some just took the kits and ran and others returned a built building but not untill I had written them off). Guess that was a bit of a rant, sorry!

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It’s 1796 just outside Paris in the Palace of Versailles, having just learned that the modeling peasants haven’t the time or skills to build kits, Queen Howard remarks “let them run brass”.

If I had the hacking skills to pull it off, this would be your new forum avatar:

Seriously (and respectfully) Howard, if you consider the resources required to build a model railroad like time, space, money, skill, knowledge, dedication… you are a “one percenter” in every category. IMO, this makes you uniquely unqualified to comment on the state of model railroading as practiced by the rest of us (peasants).

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That’s probably true.

Myself, I got started on Athearn blue box locomotives and kits, as well as MDC kits, since they were generally much better detailed and rolled better than the train set competitors. I’ve attempted to upgrade those kits by shaving off molded details and adding aftermarket parts. Even my best attempts fall short of what I can now buy RTR. I can’t paint a kit any better thatn RTR, I can’t install grab irons any straighter than RTR. For me, building a kit anymore is strictly a labor of love, not a means to get a detailed model.

And I freelance a shortline. Shortlines tend to use anything they can get. I’m not trying to replicate a particular prototype or to develop a particular consistency among a fleet