Hi,
Since I do not own any brass vehicle, I am curious to know what is so special about them. Are they detailed beyond plastic? Is it the feeling of value and exclusiveness associated with the weight? Craftsmanship? or is it something else?
Regards
Walid
Sometimes heftier, but that applies to price as well.
Sometimes/often more detail, but the gap has narrowed markedly since 2009 or so.
More road/engine specific details that make for a more prototypical model. IOW, fewer USRA ‘foobies’ with road names that never existed.
Often get engines not produced in plastic or pot metals at all.
The feeling that you have ‘invested’ in an up-scale item, a prized gem that you would be proud to display.
Nearly all my brass locomotives are USRA designs that have good running better detailed plastic versions available.
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The brass locomotives are easier to maintain and service. This is important to me. The designs are also rugged and simple.
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I own more brass freight cars than brass locomotives. Brass freight cars give me the opportunity to own some really interesting styles of freight cars.
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-Kevin
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Hello—
This would probably be my top priority when choosing a brass model. There were large electric “motors” that once operated in my home city of Cleveland, Ohio. These locomotives have been made by at least three different builders in brass. This is probably a type of locomotive that would never be considered for the mass-market so it was something I was willing to pay a premium for in brass.
IMG_6789_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
It is not only locomotives. There are many examples of rolling stock and even structures that fall into this category, too.
I have always wanted an accurate representation of the private car “Ferdinand Magellan” that was specifically modified by Pullman for the exclusive use of the President of the U.S… Accurate models have never been mass produced so the only option is to scratch build or turn to a brass model:
IMG_8223_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
I have purchased some 1960s era models and given them the upgrade treatment, new motor, replaced crude details with more recent lost-wax castings. For example:
IMG_8544_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
This NYC H-10 was imported
Though my current model railroad budget basically allows for only very reasonably priced motive power (kids approaching college, etc.), in the past I have owned and played with some magnificent HO brass models.
The most recently produced brass steam engines, from Sam Model Tech (formerly Samhongsa) and Boo Rim Precision, both in South Korea offer many features that do not exist in plastic or even many of the brass hybrid offerings. They offer amazing levels of detail: cab gauges that have the face and dial painted, some opening hatches (with painted piping showing beneath), very well detailed cab interiors, illuminated numberboards, sometimes illuminated classification lights, etc. The drive trains offer individually sprung drivers, which track much better over most real world HO trackwork. They run extremely well, exceptionally well.
They are of limited production, now often serial numbered runs (though as Howard Zane will tell you sometimes there are extra engines and/or there are non-serial-numbered extras from the same product run that are out there). The paint jobs can be exceptional, and all of this means the latest models, be they steam or diesel, are not inexpensive.
Though I’m currently buying old Stewart/Kato plastic diesels inexpensively, because they are a great value, generally speaking I think you get what you pay for in this hobby. The elite brass models, that are legitimately rare, at least hold their values better than many others.
I’ve owned several brass hybrid steamers. They have fairly rigid drive mechanisms and the big 4-8-4’s derail very easily when compared to the tracking properties of the full-on brass models which have individually sprung and equalized drivers. There is a world of difference in the performance of a $600 hybrid and the full brass versions which can be $1200 or more.
For some people, perhaps even most people, the difference in performance does not justify the price
As already mentioned, brass’s attractiveness - in general - is better detailing (that depends on the manufacturer and model) and the opportunity to obtain a unique prototype. I have 5 brass locomotives (4 steam, 1 diesel) and 2 brass cabooses modeled after specific units used on the NYC. Except for the cabooses and a 4-6-4 Hudson, the majority of the brass locomotives I own will never be produced in anything other than brass because they have only limited appeal - even to NYC modelers:
Like Ed though - if some manufacturer produces a NYC H-10a/10b or an L-2 Mohawk in plastic or brass-hybrid, I would be all over it. I’m not going to hold my breath though.
Price for brass does NOT always equate to superior running models though. While some older and inexpensive brass can run quite well, a higher-quality brass locomotive might turn out to be a poor runner - just like in plastic. Every model is different - even from the same manufacturer.
Most of the newer brass being produced nowadays will - more than not - run very well and may even come pre-wired for/pre-installed with DCC and sound. I still suspect that the majority of brass acquisitions are by collectors, who only keep them in boxes and will never see the light of day on any layout. That isn’t me. If I purchase ANY locomotive, it’s for the purpose of operating it on my layout.
Tom
I think it will depend what you prefer to model. If you prefer diesels, I don’t think brass is a serious option. I like steam logging locos and brass offers the best range of models in terms of looks and longevity. I must admit that I also like the “feel” of a metal or brass engine, pipework and all. It just looks and feels like a real miniature steam locomotive… Totally absurd and subjective, I know.
Simon
Simon,
Not absurd, at all. I’m sure the added weight of the brass doesn’t hurt in regards to tractive force when pulling heavy logs up a steep grade. [:D]
Tom
I’ve seen and repaired, re-built, re-detailed and painted or re-painted many very appealing brass locomotives, but unless the price is also appealing, they’re not mine.
The ones I do have were bargain priced, and most needed some work.
This one, originally an unpainted model of a B&M B-15 Mogul, was $99.00, but didn’t run. I remotored it and later re-geared it, too, but because I don’t model the B&M, I painted and lettered it for one of my freelanced roads. I changed the air pump for a cross-compound type, added cab window awnings to hide the arched window-tops, and a few other details…
…later, I changed the original old-style brass cab for a more modern one (from a Bachmann Consolidation), modified the tender by building up the cistern and coal bunker using styrene, and changed the “Economy-style” cylinder set-up to better represent a full piston-valve locomotive. I also added a bunch of weight to both loco and tender. It’s a smooth runner and, despite its diminutive size, a decent puller, too…
It might still be worth $99.00, or maybe more, or maybe much less…I don’t care!
I bought this one next…don’t recall the exact price, but probably around $250.00-or-so, as it didn’t have its original box. For me, that was pushing my financial limits, but it’s one of my favourite prototypes and the price was appealing because a similar model was also for sale, at the same shop, for around twice the price. For collectors, perhaps the box would be worth as much as the model, but I can make a serviceable box if I wanted to simply store it.
I stripped the original paint and repainted it, with very little modifications - a few re-soldered details on the loco and a bu
Love the photos and the stories, Wayne. [Y] And I’ve also benefitted from generous MRRing friends over the years. Yes, you can be a lone wolf modeler but still have friends in the hobby. [:D]
Tom
I disagree with the comment about brass diesels not being “a serious option”. There are some plastic diesels that have chronic assembly issues–to the point where I can search through 30 or more plastic models and not find a single one acceptable–such that I would buy the brass version every single time. Also, some of today’s Division Point and other brass diesels are just simply amazing models of their prototypes–and scarce or rarely seen roadnames have been done that will never be readily available in plastic.
There have been many recent brass diesels that I saw photos of online (like the Division Point EJ&E RS-1) and wished I could buy…they are just beyond me at the present time…maybe someday again.
Also the entire 1940-41 East Wind passenger consist in lemon yellow, brunswick green and silver pinstripes is awesome in brass!
In the meantime I’m looking for certain factory painted brass cabooses that exceed what is available in plastic. Maybe I could get the occasional caboose.
Regarding the comments above about price not always equaling quality, that can indeed be true, but I have not seen a steam engine from Boo Rim that did not run great right out of the box. I just have not–every single one has been amazing. Perhaps my sample size was limited?
John
I remember when getting your first brass … whatever, locomotive, rolling stock … was considered a rite of passage into being a “serious” modeler. So my first brass purchases, all relative bargains, were intended to be my rite of passage. They were all a dog’s breakfast of stuff with only one locomotive being even vaguely related to what I was otherwise modeling. Four steam locomotives and a couple of freight cars, now joined by two (painted) cabooses which actually are closely related to what I am modeling and may be my most accurate models in terms of detail, and paint and lettering.
The allure to me is what craftsmanship the brass steam locomotives represent. These are not factory items, each represents the actual careful work of one or more individuals, quite possibly people in Korea (or earlier, Japan) who have no actual interest in or knowledge about what they are building. Beautiful workmanship has its own virtues.
Having said that, lost wax casting brass detail parts (such as CalScale’s AB brake set) have their own beauty and heft, even though the detail per se may be no better and perhaps not even quite as good as the plastic casting counterpart set. Brass is a very attractive metal.
Dave Nelson
Speaking of…
This neat, little Pennsy B8a arrived in todays mail. This is a NJ Custom Brass model of a unique PRR saddle tanker that was used as the shop switcher in Altoona. It was a homely-looking thing and I wanted to give it a good home.
PRR_B8a_2788 by Edmund, on Flickr
Pretty slim chance that BLI, Walthers or Rapido will put one of these on their “to-do” list anytime soon. It runs like a coffee grinder so it looks like a NWSL gear-train is in its future.
Thank You, Ed
Well, I can understand the passion of collection and authentic represntation of excotic vehicles not considered by mass producer can make brass models attractive, but as far as detailing is concerned - correct me if I am wrong - I cannot think they are unbeatable with this vast amount of detail parts offered by after market companies.
Again, I have not held on in my hands to make an opinion, it is just my impression.
Regards
Walid
PS. I am talking with cab units diesel in mind
Even with the availability of all the aftermarket parts nowadays, you still aren’t going to find EVERY detail for a plastic diesel or steam locomotive because each locomotive is very unique. Diesels would be easier than steamers though to detail.
A well-detailed brass model will be painted and detailed for a specific railroad, model, phase, and/or era and you’ll pay for it. You may have to create you own detailing to get that for a desired model in plastic.
Tom
I am surprised Howard Zane has not chimed in yet, but he would likely say that a properly painted brass model reaches a look of realism not attainable on plastic. The paint flows more on real metal than it does on plastic and the subtle details can show more effectively.
That is not to say some painters cannot do a good job on plastic–they do–but the end result can be different.
John
When you talk about value, I have found most things lose it over time, exceptions being the art world and real estate. Now remember this is from a bottom feeder but the reason is compitinon and improvements. Yes I have a few brass, used to have more but sold them off as the plastic I have ran better and looked better (not that I coundn’t have worked on the brass to that end, just not my thing). Am I looking for brass, sure, two items. A fire train and a shop switcher, both readily available but just don’t want to pay the price, both of which have held up fairly well.
For a number of reasons including unaffordability and incorrect detailing, I have never purchased any brass diesels (I do not model steam era). I have looked at a number of brass D&RGW diesels but have noted many have incorrect details when compared to the real thing and the prices have been out of my budget.
Thankfully I have been fortunate in that most of the major D&RGW 2nd generation diesels have been offered in HO plastic and many are now made with “signature” details that identify as Rio Grande.
Speaking of detailing, some of todays more recent plastic diesels rival many brass engines in detail. The idea that people buy brass to get more detail than plastic is an out-of-date idea anymore.
Value os a personal judgement call. I’m not sure about exclusiveness - which implies people with lots of money can have something poorer people can’t afford as a status symbol. That does seem to be a reality but is it a reason to buy brass? A status symbol? That seems petty if so.
I do own a few brass passenger cars and six brass cabooses. The reason I bought them had nothing to due with value, exclusiveness etc. It had everything to do with being able to include models that are important features of D&RGW trains in the late 1970’s when every train had a caboose and the Rio Grande Zephyr included a Pullman Standard combine. Both are only available in brass.
I am hopeful that a company will offer a International Extended Vision caboose in plastic which is accurate for D&RGW and other roads (which may be possible using modular tooling). That would negate the necess
I can relate to the cost vs. ability to afford. When you have financial obligations/burdens, it can impact whether or not you can afford brass or not. If one hasn’t been able to set up a big fund for college ahead of time, it can be a huge drain - and when that obligation is finished, it’s like getting a super-sized raise in pay or monthly income. In my case I was separated in 2000 and had a large legal financial drain in the form of child support, private school costs, and finally college. New York is a bad place to get married and divorced so I discovered. My daughter finished university a year ago and I could probably buy a new brass engine every other month with the funds freed up when the college expense was lifted. Don’t get me wrong, it was money well spent and my daughter now has a Biomedical Engineering degree and a solid career as a defense contractor. But with that extra cash am I buying brass? No, with a bigger home and a modely bigger mortage, now I’m now spending it on kitchen upgrades, remediating parts of the house with moisture rot (front door, master bathroom), cost of finishing an unfinished basement, step-son expenses to get him with a job credential, car and independance.
Conclusion is brass does seem to have an exclusivity about it in the sense that it is a thing for those who have the means because they don’t have some typical financial burdens and/or have a high income vs. COL. If you have a great paying job and are single, then likely brass is much more accessible. Or a two income house-hold and house paid for, kids out of college etc. Cost and di
John,
Here is my chime in… I go back to the early days of brass having purchased my first loco while still on Army pay in 1962. During those times, brass was quickly becoming main stream as the alternatives were not too great and certainly not as plentiful as today. Most brass during that period were of steam prototypes and many modelers had grown up with steam locomotives.(My seeds were having two uncles who ran steam and often riding with them during the late 40’s.)
Many folks model what they can see and know about. Each year, we grow further from steam , but there are still folks who do period modeling. These are the folks who operate brass steam models today.
Today brass is purchased by just too groups…the operator and the collector. Just a decade ago, there were more classes like the operator/collector, and on the top of the hill was the investor. Prior to 1997 (the peak of brass activity), if a person really knew and studied brass trends, he could purshase (correctly) and realize better returns then with the stock market. Not so today!! During the 90’s as a brass dealer, I could use my line of credit to buy a $100,000 collection and have it payed off prior to the first payment coming due. Today, this is financial suicide and then some. There are exceptions like Dan Glasure of Brasstrains.com who purchased my brass business in 2005. Dan was in his early 30’s then and after a few meetings, I told him he’d soon be the largest dealer on the