What If:A Fictional Great Northern Based on The BN Merger

My interest is about the Great Northern as if the merger took place,but kept the GN name,officials,and practices with some changes in operations(i.e.:train symbols,routing,schedules,and power assignments),equipment purchases,physical makeup of the system based on what BN actually did during it’s first decade of existance.With the exceptions of membership in Amtrak and locomotives re-assigned to other maintenance bases and specific locomotive types assigned to specific trains.

To that end I am not inviting a discussion on the pros or cons of such an action,but more of how would such a system be set up.Based on the schedules and equipment of the predecessors as of March 1,1970,changes made as of March 3,1970(the date BN became a reality operationally),and subsiquent(sp?)changes of operations in November 1970,June 1971,and November 1971.I would like to design a system map and be able to include train symbols and schedules,location of trains as of 12:01am,March 1 showing power and caboose assigned to trains,locomotives in shops or ready for scheduled train departures.I would also like to be able to make maps for hourly and daily changes as time moved forward after the merger.

I have worked out a locomotive roster based on the BN renumbering scheme with changes made for some units based on model(NW2’s in the 100 series,SW7/9/1200’s in the 300 series,SW1500’s in the 500 series) and predecessor ownership(GN,NP,CBQ,SPS,and subsidiaries C&S,FW&D,etc included),a new Big Sky Blue paint scheme losely based on the BN whiteface scheme of the mid-80’s(?),new locomotive purchases(SW1500’s instead of SW1000’s,more F45’s and fewer SD45’s so that power sets of F45/SD45/SD45 are more the rule,fewer GE’s ordered after 1972,more SD40-2’s including SD40-2B’s and more GP38-2’s).

I am working on this as a computer scenario using MS Works spreadsheet with the roster and a station list,but would like to convert this to a map which would be easie

That sounds like an interesting project. I hope you find it enjoyable.

I believe BN was forced to buy GE C30-7 locomotives. EMD was flooded with orders at the time (?) and a lot of power was needed quickly for increasing coal traffic. BN had at least two orders of SD40-2’s built in London by GMD.

What are your plans for the Twin Cities ? It would seem to me that BN was forced to turn NP’s Northtown Yard into a major yard. Was there room around GN’s Union Yard on the Minneapolis / St. Paul border for a major expansion ? Could you still consolidate at Northtown, by try to keep the Willmar line as a primary route west ?

Thanks,Dale.It’s been very interesting and enjoyable thus far.

Yes,during 1978 and 1979 La Grange was at capacity at 5 1/2 units completed a day.I would still have C30-7’s,but at lower quantities than BN and have more SD40-2’s and some SD40-2B’s built at GMD.SD40-2B’s had been ordered by UP in 1976,but the order was cancelled at some point.I’ve planned orders for SD40-2B’s beginning in 1977.

As for the Twin Cities area and the new routing of mainline freights via Staples,I’ve already decided that was the best alternative,with Northtown being more viable than Union.Consolidation of the Twin Cities area facilities was one of the benefits of the merger.

One thing that I have a hard time understanding is the routing of trains between Sandpoint,Idaho and Spokane.How was the switch from the GN main to the NP main accomplished at Sandpoint before the new connection between them was completed in late 1971?And how were trains going to Seattle returned to GN rails without a backup move?

Have a good one.

Bill B

This 1983 Terraserver map shows a newer curved connection, which replaced an older straight connection.

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=13&Z=11&X=333&Y=3342&W=1&qs=|sandpoint||

If you click on it, a larger scale 1968 map shows only the straight connection. Is the old connection still used to connect UP with the GN line ?

I presume you are aware of the Spokane 1974 World’s Fair, and the forced removal of the GN line.

Have you thought about cowled SD40-2 locomotives, perhaps with a Draper taper like CP picked up later ?

When I clicked on the link,the map showed both the straight connection with wyes at both ends and the curved connection which passed closer to the airport,but the zoomed view only showed the straight connection.

Right.The old GN line was removed shortly after the completion of the Latah Jct bridge in 1972.Originally when Hill was building thru the area,his plan was to bypass Spokane to the north and then connect at Wright Jct crossing Hangman Creek at the same location,but Spokane wanted more than one railroad thru town.

I hadn’t thought about cowled SD40-2’s.I’m more a fan of hood units,F45’s being the exception,can’t answer as to why.

Have a good one.

Bill B

Given that trains operate as extras and not on schedules(schedules are theory only)and that maintenance schedules for locomotives is nearly impossible to find.

Scheduled trains on GN according to the Official Guide were 97(the West Coaster)83,81,99 westbound with 79(the Beeliner) between Laurel and Spokane via Great Falls,and 5(the Piggyback Special) between Spokane and Seattle.88(the Fruit Special)first and second sections between Wenatchee and Minneapolis,82(the Forwarder)98 eastbound with 78(the Texas) and 6.All these being the main transcon freights(I’ve still to research the secondary trains).

97,83,81,88,and 82 kept their symbols after the merger.Second 88 became 90,98 became 130,5 and 6 were dropped as was 99,78 and 79 were rerouted over the NP to Spokane.Trains 182,190,and 197 were added to replace NP/SP&S trains.

Train locations and locomotive maintenance dates are something I’ve had to freelance as the real info is impossible to come by(ok I’ve said it so prove me wrong! :slight_smile: ).Locomotive maintenance days I worked out by starting a spreadsheet with locomotive numbers 1 to 9999 in one column followed by former owner,number,and maintenance day,which is a randum number between 1 and 28(day of the month,limited by February’s 28 days,leap year not included).Train locations as of 12:01am for a given day figured by the times on the schedules and miles and use an average speed for each train.

Have a good one.

Bill B

I managed to find a better view of Sandpoint on MSN Live Search with the arial view showing the new and old connections.

http://local.live.com/Default.aspx?ppud=0&wa=wsignin1.0

Have a good one.

Bill B

What are you going to do with the passenger trains ? SDP40F’s, and steam heat ?

Have you thought about a two-stage merger ? In the first stage, NP and the SP&S would be folded into a northern Great Northern, while the C&S and FW&D are folded into the CB&Q in a southern Great Northern (operations-wise). Perhaps the Twin Cities to Chicago line would go to the northern division.

FP45’s in 1971,along with some F45’s.Also thinking along the lines of power cars for electric supply to passenger cars.

As for Divisions,I’ll keep the BN idea of Regions,Divisions,Subdivisions.BN used the predecessor makeup of divisions for a short time.All grouped into Regions.

Have a good one.

Bill B

sounds pretty interesting to me. i’ll keep watching. kon

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Great Northern Railway



















Locomotive Summary



















3-3-70







































GN,NP,CBQ,and SPS Proper





































Great Northern Railway

Regions, Divisions, and Locomotive Shops

Chicago Region

Chicago Division

14th St (CBQ) 48 units

Clyde (CBQ) 164 units

N. Lacrosse (CBQ) 3 units

Daytons Bluff (CBQ) 8 units

Galesburg (CBQ) 21 units

Hannibal Division

Hannibal (CBQ) 13 units

Kansas City (CBQ) 27 units

Ottumwa Division

Creston (CBQ) 3 units

Burlington (CBQ) 3 units

Omaha Region

Lincoln Division

Lincoln (CBQ) 303 units

Alliance Division

Alliance (CBQ) 24 units

Denver (CBQ)

Twin Cities Region

Willmar Division

Minneapolis Jct (GN) 69 units

Mesabi Division

Superior (GN) 56 units

Dakota Division

Grand Forks (GN) 72 units

Minot Division

None

St. Paul Division

Superior (NP) 21 units

Mississippi St (NP) 87 units

Fargo Division

Dilworth (NP) 10 units

Mandan (NP) 14 units

Billings Region

Montana Division

Havre (GN) 238 units

Yellowstone Division

Glendive (NP) 14 units

Laurel (NP) 10 units

Rocky Mountain Division

Livingston (NP) 239 units

Seattle Region

Spokane Division

Hillyard (GN) 87 units

Cascade Division

Interbay (GN) 69 units

Idaho Division

Parkwater (NP) 22 units

Pasco (NP) 21 units

Tacoma Division

Auburn (NP) 152 units

Portland Region

Portland Division

Vancouver (SP&S) 106 units

Klamath Falls (GN) 16 units

Lewiston (Camas Prairie) 7 units

Walla Walla (WWV) 1 unit

Colorado & Southern

Denver (C&S) 60 units

Fort Worth & Denver

Childress (FW&D) 20 units