i was wondering does anyone know what type of whistle the was on the c&o allegheny’s? Was it a hooter type? like on the n&w?
I guess the closest description would be a steamboat type whistle. Herron Rail Videos has a 30 min tape of C&O and B&O that was recorded on 16 mm sound film and has some sequences w/ Alleghenies. Try them at herronrail.com
The H-8s had a Nathan whistle, operated by a Viloco pneumatic valve.
I have always heard the whistle your talking about above as “the C&O style whistle”. I heard it once on the video of a Nickel Plate Berk masked as a C&O Kanawa. They redid all the number boards and repainted the tender and of course put a “C&O style whistle” (which came off a C&O engine I guess) on it. Needless to say it does sound like a steam boat. Actually they comment about it on the video.
The 765 masquerading as the 2765 used an IC locomotive whistle.
That whistle was off an Illinois Central locomotive and it was a steamboat type. Who knows why they choose this whistle, but the C&O did not have use the steamboat type whistle. Try to listen to the 614 on Pentrex videos if you want the C&O real sound. It is much like the standard LIMA installed whistles on the 614.
The H8’s had single note hooters operated by an air valve. Based on photos, there appear to be two sizes, a short bell, maybe 6" on the early orders, and a slightly longer bell on the later orders. The sound of the short bell whistle was described by H. Reid as a “boy soprano tweee” in his Virginian book. The longer bell whistle would sound something like an N&W hooter, possibly a bit higher pitched. I found no evidence that they were equipped with chime whistles of any kind. The deflector surrounding the whistle masks the actual size and configuration from many viewing angles.
IIRC, PM 1225 was equipped with a C&O Hudson whistle which sounded similar to 611 or 844. It’s on the Berkshire Productions video, Huntington '91 on the side-by-side sequence through Hurricane, WV.
Watch out for dubbed sounds on videos. Sometimes it’s right and sometimes not.
The dubbed sound is deceiving as you stated. It is the only sounds they have available. If we could get a look at the 1601 or 1604 close up, that would help to identify the whistle.
The Virginian H8’s like other railroads optioned appliances on their locomotives and would not have the same exact sounding whistles as the C&O engines.
Check the following sources. Photos are pretty good for whistle detail, and should suffice until someone gets to Dearborn or Baltimore.
- The Allegheny, Lima’s Finest by Gene huddleston
C&O - p33 top, p35 bottom, p38 top, p49, p79 top
VGN - p173 bottom
- Chesapeake & Ohio Super Power Steam Locomotives, also by Gene Huddleston
p23, p92 top
I have very good pictures in those publications and The Locomotive Cyclopedia. Looks big but way too long for a Hooter. I can’t verify the virginian type, so it could be different. Most railroads as you know had their favorite types and did not vary too much from the standard.
The picture below of the Virginian 2-6-6-6- might be a hooter, since it is shorter than the C&O whistle on their 2-6-6-6’s. It is much shorter than the C&O whistle, which does indicate the two roads did not use the same exact whistle. Many differences existed on the C&O and VG engines including the tenders and sand domes, which were not identical. Steam engines as you know were really custom made for individual railroads using basic design copied from past products. The VG 904 was not an exact copy, but used the C&O basic design.
Virginian 905 1950
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/vgn/vgn-s904o.jpg
On page 112 of the Locomotive Cyclopedia, Volume 1, a great picture of the left hand front 3/4 view shows the 1646 clearly. The whistle is much longer on the 1646 compared to the 904 above and the actuator is different.
Single barrel whistles can be of most any length, so that dimension by itself doesn’t indicate anything. Some examples - The PRR freight whistle was about 4" long and had a decidedly squeeky/screechy sound. The initial N&W freight whistle was a homemade brass job 7" long based on drawing D-29836. N&W’s early passenger whistle was also single note, 12-1/8" long based on drawing D29837. When the J’s arrived, the standard passenger whistle became a store-bought Nathan 3-note step top about 15-1/2" long. The former passenger whistle (at 12-1/8") became the standard N&W freight whistle, the familiar “hooter”. If anyone here gets to Strasburg, N&W 475 is equipped with what resembles the original N&W 7" freight whistle. So single note whistles can vary re: bell length.
I still think you should look very carefully at the photos I cited earlier. They show two sizes of single barrel whistles. For more, see TALF, p35 bottom, p195, p236 for the long bell variety and p33 top, p38 bottom, p49 for the short bell type. These look pretty clear to me. I can’t see any evidence of interior divisions and/or step-top configurations which would multiple notes.
I don’t have the reference’s to know the final answer to the H8’s whistle sound, but will continue this question with the C&O Historical group. It is an interesting question. We were in Roanoke on vacation in 1956 to watch trains and did get to visit the VG roundhouse at that time. They had two of the 2-8-4 's, 505 and ? and one of the 2-6-6-6’s under house steam in the roundhouse, but did not get to hear any of their whistles.
That Allegheny was a sight to see that night in the roundhouse. My dad got to see the C&O H8’s under steam on a vacation
You were really fortunate to be able to get to Roanoke in 1956. N&W was mostly all steam at that time and VGN had a lot of steam still in storage in south Roanoke. Must have been quite a show!
FWIW, I e-mailed Gene Huddleston this AM. He should be able to add a lot to the discussion. If you contact C&OHS either he or Tom Dixon will likely be the ones to respond. I’m a member, but have no first-hand experience with C&O steam. It was retired a little too soon for my recollection.
I was fortunate and have always been interested in steam engines. The N&W was all steam in 1956, at lest in the Roanoke area when I first viewed 611 on a train there. My shot of 611 at the station headed west was the first picture I shot in 1956. We spent four or five days watching the long coal trains going east with helpers and shot pictures east of town also on the grade. We would always count the cars on the coal trains and if I remember correctly, we got to 225 a few times. Once the summit was reached, the A would proceed alone to the tide water. We also shot pictures of John Henry in helper service. It was still in service when we were there but was sidelined shortly after that time. The J’s should sounded good running at speed with that wonderful steamboat type whistle.
I will wait for the answer since you have already initiated the question. Please post it or email me through the forum. Gene should have the answer.
I have a few picutures from the C&O collection and they should know more about this than anyone else.
Nice discussing this issue with you.
Thanks
CAZEPHYR
Here’s what I got back from Gene Huddleston (relevant part to C&O whistles):
The only steamboat whistles I ever heard on C&O were on
passenger engines, and i am not sure they were the same quality on
all. I recall being in the Jefferson hotel in CF, Va. in 1947 and
about 10 o’clock hearing a deep throated throbbing and echoing type
whistle which probably came from the J-3 4-8-4s kept there.
This doesn’t directly answer the Allegheny question but I’ll try another source.
I called a photographer of C&O steam power back in the 1940-50s but he didn’t recall exactly what the Alleghenies sounded like re: whistles. He was certain that they didn’t have passenger whistles, but that was about it.
As a last resort, I watched the Herron video, B&O/C&O Steam Power With Live Sound. This 30-minute (actually about 22 minutes excluding the commercial at the end), purportedly has live sound recorded on the original film. I checked the B&O part carefully and looked for anything that was out of place: type of whistle, traces of steam from the whistle itself, speed, driver and sound synch. There are many examples and they all check out. The claim for live sound is very likely accurate. On the shorter C&O part there are several sequences involving Alleghenies. There are two examples of a relatively high pitched, single note whistle and one of a lower pitch single note whistle, somewhat resembling an N&W “hooter”. This is consistent with what I found in photos.
This is the best I can do with the materials available. I have a pretty good ear for whistles, chords, music and that kind of stuff, but I wasn’t there at the time.
Thanks to all of you for posting to this thread as I am in the proccess of installing a sound decoder in an H-8 right now. Plus I needed to learn more about C&O steam anyway. As I know very little about it.
Thanks again