What’s the difference btween a Form A, Form B, and Slow Order?
A Form A, IIRC is an order given to a train crew that states it has no orders (if I’m wrong on this I already admit it, if I’m not, then good). I have no clue what a Form B is, and a Slow Order is just that an order to continue on present track to destination at a slow (15mph IIRC) speed until other orders are given, or until destination is reached.
Again, I may be completely wrong on this, but if I remember correctly, that’s what they are.
Form As and Form Bs are the two common types of Track Bulletins. Track Bulletins are used to modify permanent rules and instructions such as Employee Timetables and Operating Rules, and to notify of conditions.
Form As are used to issue temporary speed restrictions, notify of unsafe conditions, notify of changes to the signal system, protect tracks removed from service, authorize movement against the current of traffic, protect tracks blocked with equipment, or change or modify any of the operating rules, general orders, or special instructions.
Form Bs are used to protect men and equipment work zones on the track. They notify of the time that a work zone is in effect, the foreman in charge, the milepost limits, and whether trains must stop before entering the work zone and request permission to enter the work zone from the foreman in charge.
Form Cs are used to notify of unsafe conditions by some railways, e.g., walkway missing from bridge, bad footing at milepost such-and-such, etc.
Slow Order is an obsolete (but still commonly used ) term for a Temporary Speed Restriction, which is covered by a Form A.
See http://www.trainweb.com/gcor/bulletin.html#15.0
A Temporary Speed Restriction is not an operating authority like a “run slow” order. It concerns track conditions only. For example, a subdivision may have a permanent speed limit between MP 0.0 and 40.1 of 40 mph. The track inspector determines one day that tie conditions between MP 12.1 and 12.2 are only good enough for 25 mph. He calls the dispatcher and requests issuance of a Form A temporary speed restriction between 12.1 and 12.2 of 25 MPH until the section crew can arrive and put some new ties in. The dispatcher issues the Form A with those restrictions and it applies to ALL trains until the track is repaired and the track foreman in charge determines the track is again safe for 40 mph. At that time the Form A is cancelled to any train
…Who’s rule book?
Old GCOR was like this basically:
Form A - Fixed slow order, track or signal condition (conventional yellow/red/green advanced warning signs)
Form B- Slow order or track issue contolled by responsible party on site (usually track foreman)…dispatcher loses control of a given section of track to the on site person red&yellow approach sign followed by r/y/g boards. You can’t procede through the limits w/o local control operator in charge’s permission.
Form C- Other instruction (Whistle Freely, be on the lookout, etc.)
Indeed. I’ll be calling the dispatcher tomorrow morning for a NORAC Form D - the equivalent to a track warrant. CSX calls their version an EC-1.
I’ve never heard of a Form C before, I guess they’re not too common. Is there such as a Form D?
We dont have form a we do have a form B when the bnsf issues it to us on their trackage, and slow orders are used regular . each railroad seems to have their own names for these. track authority is our form of a form a.
Once again here is a prime example of railroads unable to standardize temporary orders and control of the train. We have Forms and Track Warrants, and now we have Track Authorities. This is not a hard problem but with the antiquainted thinking of the railroad industry it is impossible for them to consider cooperation.
What qualifies you to reach your conclusions?
I can’t say about the other GCOR users, but I’ve seen Form A bulletins only used for temporary speed restrictions. All the other items mentioned, tracks out of service, signal suspensions, single tracking etc have been on Form C bulletins.
Some GCOR users, Iowa Interstate comes to mind, have had a Form D. This isn’t the same as the NORAC Form D. Their Form D was used to issue temporary speed restrictions. It didn’t have structured columns like the A and the restrictions were written in the same style that was used in train orders.
Jeff
The number of responses on this topic!
Thanks!
Ironically, in a similar vein, we use responses like yours to reaffirm our antipathy toward railfans.
RWM
And what differance does it make what form we right on,run on. And on the NS there is no track warrents , Truth is We dont run on each others railroad with out knowing what they use and what the forms mean. there does not need to have any standarization. its not like I get on a engine in St.Louis and end up in New York. so why would i even care what tree uses or what Ed in Texas uses. I wont go there to run my train.
And yes, you do learn the rules of your road and the appropriate forms and their use. That is part of the qualification. However, there will be cases where forms are not clearly understood, especially by folks who work multiple roads (Amtrak for example). And the NTSB will ask the question, “why didn’t the qualified crew understand the paperwork”.
The present system of differences is not wrong. It is however a potential for error. Modern systems improve based on analyzing threats (possible failures) and determining how to reduce the source of errors where possible.
You all should support any effort to reduce errors and misunderstandings. You should all be making effort to improve safety in all phases of train operation. This is just another area where you could improve safety.
Please resist the urge to attack the posters. You have no idea who is reading this.
If you want more safety suggestions I have many.
I am used to the UP track bulletin format. I’ve detoured over the CN(exIC) and had their paperwork. Switching in Des Moines years ago, certain jobs would get IAIS paperwork. Whenever old paperwork from foreign lines has been left on locomotives of run-thru trains I have looked at them.
All are different, yet quite similiar. When you have a speed restriction, all give the same information. speed, track, beginning location, ending location and if flags aren’t displayed. The same with bulletins that protect work areas, all give the same required information.
I bet that if all the railroaders, current and former, on this forum met and exchanged the track bulletins/orders/etc they work(ed) with, we would all understand each others paperwork.
Jeff
When insults don’t work, try scolding and threats? That’s an interesting method to draw people to your side.
Your safety suggestions are properly addressed to:
Jo Strang, Associate Administrator for Railroad Safety, Office of Railroad Safety
Federal Railroad Administration
1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE
Mail Stop 25
Washington, DC 20590
RWM
you made a good statement but let me take it apart. you say yes you understand the paper work and for the most part the territory ( reading between the lines ) but some paper work is not understood and what if you worked multiple territory like amtrak and then you asked why didnt the quilified crew understand the paperwork. You answered your own question. if the crew was qualified they would have understood the paperwork and the territory if they have not worked it in sometime then i would ask for a pilot or a second engineer to help me refresh. But the FRA made this mess themselves and not wanting to take the heat for it they leave it up to the carriers, in otherwords it use to be that to stay qualified on a railroads territory you had to have worked those jobs every 6 months now to stay current its every year. and that rule is not being enforced either. all you hear from trainmasters is be careful.
Also How
Why not make this informative rather than spending your time attacking railfans aka foamers in a forum for ALL people who work or hobby railroads.
I used to hang out at rail yards, but always around the edges in safe areas or up on bridges for photo ops or to view the entire train. I did not foam at the mouth as you tend to suggest in your message of ALL the people that are not employed by the railroad. So to be indirectly called a “foamer” is an insult to me. In fact that term is an insult. If your going to use this term then you should distinguish between those who are unsafe “foamers” and those who “railfan” from safe places.
I enjoy reading these forums and really do not like the insults I see flying around here.
Please be factual and polite in your responses.
I dont care if I hurt your feelings, And I didnt attack railfans I did say something to the foamer and i stick to my statement. There is no reason to standardize these forms. There are somethings better left alone so you have no idea what is going on, and truth is you dont need to know what is going on. Do the police let you know everything No does a doctor let you know everything No and does the military let all the info out. Nope. So to sum it up. if you didnt do it you shouldnt let it bother you. if you do the things foamers do then I guess your feelings will stay hurt.
crewshuttle, don’t let wabash1’s comments get too far under your skin. Sure, his posts can be a little rough around the edges - and sometimes a challenge to fully understand - but he’s a working rail and is willing to share good info and valid insights, and his head and heart are in the right place. And he must be a foamer of sorts, too - he’s on here with the rest of us, right ? [swg]
On this topic, I appreciated jeffhergert’s conclusion above: “I bet that . . . we would all understand each others paperwork”.
As to Amtrak (and any other) multi-railroad run-through operations: Those are the exceptions or “outliers” or “Who’s out of step”, so the burden ought to be on them to make sure their people understand and can and do comply with the variations of the rules and forms, etc., instead of making everyone else - who seem to be doing just fine as it is - change. Besides, after another generation and the pending implementation of PTC (and whatever else comes along after that), this will seem like a debate over whether audio tape recordings should be on 8-track vs. cassettes (for those of you who can even remember what that was all about ! [(-D] ).
- Paul North.