Wheel squealing in brand new Athearn Genesis and Intermountain Locomotives - advice needed

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Hey guys, I’m new here, but I’ve been reading the forums for a while and they’ve been super helpful for me.

Recently I’ve bought several new locomotives. Trying to model modern Union Pacific.

For a while I had been buying slightly used, and sending loads of them back for various issues with packaging for shipping, or problems the buyer didn’t disclose. The usual eBay stuff. Kept a couple that ran well and have worked well for me.

I then decided to try some brand new locomotives. The most recent ES44ACs from Intermountain and Athearn Genesis caught my eye. However, both of the first two units I ordered, one from each manufacturer, have had bad wheel squealing problems.

I did the usual stuff. Used lube only where I could confirm the squeal was coming from. The Intermountain was running very rough at one point, then smoothed out a bit, and was quiet. But then the squealing came back, as well as some lurching at low speeds, and I decided to send it back. The Athearn just arrived today, and it’s squealing even worse. Just did the same dance of trying to track down which parts of the wheel trucks were squealing, a ton of trial and error, with only a slight improvement, followed by a complete return of the original squealing.

Bought a used Atlas GP40 recently as well, which is ALSO squealing very badly. I spent hours yesterday basically lubing every single part of the locomotive I could access, including EVERYWHERE on the wheel trucks, in an attempt to chase it down. No improvement AT ALL.

Needless to say, I’ve grown very frustrated. The one loco I own that is not squealing at all is a Kato Dash 9. I did have to lube it when first receiving, but it’s been quiet and smooth ever since.

Looking for some advice. Do I keep sending these brand new units back until I get one that isn’t squealing? Am I likely to get lucky and get one that’s quiet, or are they all likely to behave the same way? Do I keep these and keep

2

[#welcome] to the forum. Your first posts are moderated and therefore delayed.

I thought this was going to be a decoder sound question. Your problem doesn’t ring a bell from recent posts and I’m afraid I have nothing to offer, but I’ll give your post a bump into today’s posts. We have lots of knowledgeable members who may be able to help.

3

Does his happen only on curves, or on straight tracks, too? What radius curves are you using? Do you have any indication of what the manufacturer says is the minimum radius these engines should run on? Does this happen with or without rolling stock coupled behind? Forward only, reverse only or both?

Are these DC or DCC engines, and are you running them with an appropriate power source?

4

I hate to say this, especially to a new forum member, but you sound like an eBay seller’s worst nightmare, “sending loads of them back for various issues”. Plus, returning brand new locomotives back to the manufacturers.

Have you considered that it may be your track work? What type of track are you using and what is the radius of the curves? It seems as if the squealing on so many locomotives is due to the stress on the wheels caused by the track itself.

Rich

5

I agree Rich, wheel squeal? Some would pay extra to have that CV on a decoder!

Define “wheel squeal”. Lets hear it.

Mike.

6

Hi and [#welcome] Aboard!

I don’t recall ever having a problem of a “squeal” sound from the trucks or axles. They turn so slowly that that type of sound wouldn’t be generated there, in my experience.

Out of maybe 300 locomotives I have presently or formerly owned I recall a high-pitched squeal on maybe five or six of them (Proto 2000, usually) and this sound either came from motor bearings or worm shaft bearings.

In other cases where I couldn’t actually pin down the source of the squeal it turned out that it was coming from the motor brushes and by turning the brushes 180° and playing with the spring tension a bit I finally eliminated (or greatly reduced) the squeal.

The only advice I can offer is simply RUN THEM!

Some of my locomotives are going on 25 years old. Many have been lubed only once (after their initial inspection/lubing when new or acquired) in their lifetime.

Does your layout allow continuous running? If so, Run Them! Two or three hours in each direction, alternating direction every fifteen or twenty minutes or so.

IF you can not continuously run them, invest in a set of rollers where you can run the locos on the bench while observing (listening to) their operation. Run them!

IF they are still squealing after five or six hours of run time, then look for a possible problem IF they haven’t quieted down by then.

I’ve taken apart some of my older locomotives which I estimate have had at least 3- or 400 hours of running time and can barely see any perceptible wear. They are designed for hours of running.

Good Luck, Ed

7

[#welcome]

We need more technical info.
Does this happen in both directions?
Does this happen all over the layout, on straight track or curved track. Are you operating DC or DCC?
What is the manufacture of your power pack?
Are you sure it is wheel noise?
Does speed change the noise?
What scale?
What kind of track?
Is the track on plywood? Is the track on cork or foam?

Your question is kinda like a guy saying my car wont run, what’s wrong with it.

It is very unusual for a locomotive to squeal let alone a bunch, especially new out of the box.

Mel

My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

Bakersfield, California

I’m beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

8

Since you guys are asking similar questions I’ll try to tackle them all in one go.

  • HO scale, all units are DCC, using a Digitrax DCS52 controller
  • Bachmann EZ track, nickel
  • Happens on curves more often than straight tracks, but present on both
  • I have one line that has 22" radius curves, and another that has 18". All of the engines will run on both radiuses except the Intermountain, which only stays on the 22" radius curves. No difference, squealing is equally bad on both.
  • Rolling stock or load makes no difference.
  • Direction depends on the unit. Right now the Athearn ES44 is squealing more in forward than reverse. The Intermountain ES44 is squealing the same in either direction. The Atlas GP-40 w
9

Thanks for the response! I don’t have nearly as much experience with model railroading as you, but in my experience doing this since I was a kid, I’ve definitely found that to be the case as well. Running them for a long time tends to work out a lot of problems. I work in audio, and I can tell you this is definitely true in a classic electronics sense too. Running current (especially hot current) through analog circuitry for long periods of time works out a lot of kinks. Locomotives are electronic and mechanical. Some issues come on the electronics side; the electrical pickups, the components on the board, the wires, and some issues come on the mechanical side; all the moving parts. Running them for a long time can work out electrical issues; making all the various contact points more conductive as oxidation burns off, and mechanical issues; points of friction get worn away, and lube gets worked into the parts. Both of these areas also benefit from more heat. More running = more heat. When guys talk about “breaking in” a new locomotive, this is what they mean. Some people claim this isn’t necessary anymore, but I beg to differ. The electronics and mechanics are still largely unchanged, and will smooth out/run better after some time, especially continuous running time. In my case, these locos have already been run quite a bit, in all directions, and at all speeds, which is why I’m looking for some advice. Either way, I will continue to run them as much as possible to see if the issue improves.

10

Wheels on tight radius curves is the only cause that springs to mind as obvious.

Those are 6 axle locomotives. Even 20" radius curves might be tight enough to cause a bit of squeal. Even our well cars deliver a satisfying rail squeal type noise on 22" radius curves. Our 6 axle ES44 AC and SD40 are quiet though.

There’s really nothing else in current locomotive designs that could squeal.

11

Maybe it has nothing to do with the bearings and motor. I thought about it and realized, only time i have a constant squeak is when a pilot or plow was to low and drug over the rail. If he lubed the bearsings gears and such and it still persists. It could be a clearance issue. That would effect all the different engines equally. Need a video if possible

shane

12

My experience, even long 6 axle locomotives on a tight radius bind up and usually the front truck lifts enough to “climb” the rail and derails.

I’ve never heard “flange squeal”, just derailments.

Mike.

13

Athearn RTR ES44AC do drag their plows over Atlas switch motors. We haven’t had one touch a railhead or frog. There is very little clearance and the plows on ours pop off with annoying frequency.

14

I have experienced squealing on various HO scale locomotives: in my experience, it is an intermittent problem that tends to occur in winter when the relative and absolute humidity levels are low here in the Upper Midwest. I apply a very small drop of LaBelle lubricating fluid where the axle meets the electrical contact, and the squealing disappears. After a couple of years have passed, the lube evaporates away and the squealing returns, so I repeat the process.

15

If one is concerned about electrical conductivity, one can buy the electrically conductive lubricant. Atlas, Peco, and others have sold it. I routinely use it on the bronze electrical pickup plate that the axle ends are riding in, and it also makes a good track cleaner. If I put the electrically conductive lubricant on a small section of track, every time I run, it keeps the loco wheels clean. Maybe I need to wipe off my track with a paper towel about once a month–and that can be a quick operation.

The electrically conductive lubricant evaporates into the air much faster than any other lubricant, so it requires more frequent application than once a year on the axle ends.

John

16

OK I don’t remember seeing this info on your post when I read it through the first time, and replied earlier, but…

What I use to lub that area is CRC 2-26. It’s made to lubricate areas that also are electrical contacts.

I use a tiny round tip brush to apply it. I do this on a fairly regular basis on Genesis, Kato, and Scale Trains locos I have, as they all share the same design for electrical pick-up. I’m not familiar with IM locos, but I’m sure they also use this design.

I don’t remember the squeaking noise, as my locos have been around awhile, with a lot of run time, but when I notice poor running due to electrical issues, that contact point is where I look first.

The CRC 2-26 cures it.

I don’t take anything apart, just use the tiny brush to dab some of the lubricant onto the area where the end of the axles ride on the pick up bar.

This should stop the squeaking issue.

Mike.

17

The OP is complaining about squealing, not squeaking. There is a difference, at least to my ear.

Rich

18

Rich, scroll up and listen to the sound file he has. I think he’s edited his post with new info, instead of a direct response.

You can hear the squeak he’s asking about. It’s not a squeal, like flange squeal.

Turn the sound up.

Mike.

19

Well, that sure is more of a squeak than a squeal.

Could it be a squeakle? [(-D]

Could his pet gerbil be squeakling in the background? [:^)]

Seriously, though, how could this be happening on so many new and use locos that he says he has bought and returned?

Rich

20

CRC 2 26 is similar to WD 40. It is not intended to lubricate or conduct electricity. It will clean metal conducting surfaces but there are better cleaners for that.

The primary function of these products is water dispersal. WD stands for that in fact. It is a reasonable corrosion inhibitor. The sense that it conducts electricity results from these other characteristics. It does not lubricate. It is not conductive.